ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I'm impressed. I appreciate the humility to strengthen relationships, even publicly.

Forgiveness restores fellowship and intimacy. When I suggest that we deal with offenses after initial justification, I do not see why that is perceived as a negation of the work of Christ. If all future sins are automatically forgiven even while persisted in, how does one mend the relationship that is breached, apart from a change of attitude and behavior getting things back on track? When we do this with God (Ps. 32; 51; I Jn. 1:9; Eph....forgive as He forgives), it does not mean that we were not saved or need to get saved again. A breach of intimacy in marriage, family, work, relationship with God is restored with a biblical pattern. This is not the same as saying the relationship is severed with one wrong.

If Knight can forgive, why can't God forgive anew, even after initial forgiveness as issues come up?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sozo said:
In any case, I don't want this discussion to deteriorate into accusations about motives or character. So, I'm hoping that Knight will forgive me for having done that, and that others will not hold that offense against me.
No apology necessary.

I just feel like there is a certain point in a discussion like this when both cases have been made and carrying on usually ends up getting "messy". :)
 

elected4ever

New member
How should we conduct ourselves in the world around us? The scripture is replete with instruction. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


One of the things that I know for sure is that sin has not changed as Knight has suggested. When the word sin is used it means that what whatever the sin is, its meaning remains the same. Sin is that which contradicts God in ether our person of deed. We stand in opposition to God in His person, His will and plan. There is no getting away from that. There is no little or big sin. There is sin that can be forgiven and there is one sin that will not be forgiven. All sin will be forgiven except the sin of of unbelief of the finished work on the Cross by Christ Jesus. It is not that I am more saved, if that were possible, than anyone on this board. But this is also true, I am not less saved than anyone on this board.

All scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Now is the Bible the entire inspired word of God? No, I don't think so. There may be other writing out there that are just as inspired as the Bible but those writing will not contradict those writings that we know are authentic. There are scriptures that seem to have references to text that we do not have. Just because they are not part of the accepted cannon does not prevent the accepted cannon from being the the inspired word. I accept the accepted cannon as the inspired word by faith. That means that I believe it. If I must change what I believe to comport to the to the scripture then so be it. No one has the right and authority to change the text of the inspired word of God. We do not change the text to meet our expectations of what the scripture should say over what it actually says. That is why I do dot ascribe to the Open View, Calvinism or any other ism know to man. I think this is the goal of everyone that names the name of Christ. We wont to be right with God.

The scripture is profitable to man for four reasons:

1. Doctrine---- A body of principles presented for acceptance or belief. Each of us has a body of basic principles are the foundation of all we believe. The question is, Will those principles stand the scrutiny of scripture and stand the test as being sound principle. It is not what each of us may think is sound principle but what the scripture says is sound principle. Each belief must be built on a sound principle or the belief in question is a false belief. Our belief does not set our principle but the principle sets the belief.

2. reproof ----- A reproof is a rebuke. The principle will rebuke the the belief that is not consistent with it. If the principle is wrong then we will falsely rebuke a sound principle and if the principle is is right then the principle will rebuke the false belief.

3. correction ---------A correction is a reformation. It is not just a statement of reformation but the conducting of a reformation of the a faulty principle or belief. Actions, words and conduct in general will reflect the reformation of the principle of belief If we refuse the correction then there is really no belief or principle change. We remain as we were before the scripture revealed the principle or belief defect. The correction is not always instantaneous. Correction will most always be challenged. Old habits and ways of thinking are hard to brake at times. We must learn and learning can be traumatic.

4. instruction in righteousness ----- Righteousness is foreign to the human existence. The body and mind were never trained in righteousness by the soul. The body must therefore be trained by the spirit through the scriptures. It is the spirit that teaches a man how to conduct himself in righteousness.. It is not the soul that does the training.

The mind is the disseminator of information and is centered in the brain. The brain is the repository of the knowledge gained by the human life's experiences. Before the new birth in Christ it had no knowledge of the person of God but only in a rudimentary sense. It did not know who God was or that God actually existed. Now when the Holy Spirit gave the mind information about God and His Son Jesus Christ through the scriptures or by the preaching of the Word, The Holy Spirit gave understanding and factual information regardless of who the source was. It is the Holy Spirit that gives instruction in righteousness through the scripture or the reveled Word of God. The mind has to learn righteousness. It is not automatic. That is why God never left salvation to the the whelms of man. We are righteous even as God is righteous because of the new created life born of God by His seed. The body and soul was not born again and is still the same old sinful self that it has alwas been. But there is a new cop in town that inforces a new will and instructs in righteousness.

When I say that I do not sin it is becaust of the new life that is in me. It is born of God and does not, cannot and will not sin. As far as I am concerned the sole and the body are dead. They were never born of God and they do not represent the life that is in me. I am not of the flesh but of the Spirit because the Spirit of God has a new birth in life and now I am alive and not dead. The flesh will take advantage of my liberty and now because freedom from sin, (I am not free from righteousness and am in fact a slave to righteousness) will use it to defeat the purposes of Christ. Is it me doing it? NO. Paul is giving instruction in righteousness. Just because I have liberty to do because all things are lawful to me does not mean that I should allow my flesh and body to do what makes them feel good. To me it would be nothing but to the weak brother it could be his life or death. It is a constant battle in the mind not for my sake but for yours. I still have to to be instructed in righteousness in my mind and body. I still have to bring my body under subjection . Subjection to what? To righteousness and not law.To teach my body to love and not self gratification. In the Spirit I know but my body does not and my soul does not.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
elected4ever said:
One of the things that I know for sure is that sin has not changed as Knight has suggested.
I have never said that sin has changed. I have said that the word sin has a broader usage than you, Sozo and Lighthouse will acknowledge.

Debating in this fashion will ensure that you will become a legendary strawman warrior, children for generations will marvel at your accomplishments. Yet all these battles and victories against the Men of Straw will ultimately mean nothing because you will be fighting against something that isn't there.
 

elected4ever

New member
Knight said:
I have never said that sin has changed. I have said that the word sin has a broader usage than you, Sozo and Lighthouse will acknowledge.

Debating in this fashion will ensure that you will become a legendary strawman warrior, children for generations will marvel at your accomplishments. Yet all these battles and victories against the Men of Straw will ultimately mean nothing because you will be fighting against something that isn't there.
What do you believe salvation is?
 

elected4ever

New member
Knight said:
Salvation would be having you understand what is happening within a debate on TOL.
Might have know you would duck the question.

As for as you using a "broader" application to how sin is used I think is unwarranted. To me sin is what it is. Sin is broad in its own right. Maybe it is just the way you state it that leads me to think that you would call something sin that was not sin and vise versa. That is what is troubling me.

Did you know or do you believe that haveing your sins forgiven does not mean salvation?
 

Sozo

New member
e4e... I don't want to speak for him, and I hope that I am in error, but I think Knight's mind is made up on this issue.

You, Lighthouse, and I have been making valid points, that have not been addressed on this thread. When I finish answering his questions (I think I have one more verse to address) then I will bring them back up again. I don't know if he will attend to them or not. But, there are others who do believe that this is an important issue, and may benefit from taking the time and effort to take an honest look at it.
 

elected4ever

New member
Sozo said:
e4e... I don't want to speak for him, and I hope that I am in error, but I think Knight's mind is made up on this issue.

You, Lighthouse, and I have been making valid points, that have not been addressed on this thread. When I finish answering his questions (I think I have one more verse to address) then I will bring them back up again. I don't know if he will attend to them or not. But, there are others who do believe that this is an important issue, and may benefit from taking the time and effort to take an honest look at it.
OK, I'll let it drop for now. I am cooking supper anyway. Fried potatoes and steak and salad and another veggie.. :chuckle:
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Knight said:
Good point, and I agree.

I think can mess up some of the glory and rewards waiting for us in heaven when we sin.

1Corinthians 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
That's another possibility. :think:
 

Sozo

New member
kmoney said:
Do you believe there will be any sort of rewards in heaven?
The crown of life.

Seriously, what else besides Jesus and His life do you need?

And if there are rewards, how would you know? How can you perceive value if you are content?


In any case, that's another subject, because those verses in question are speaking of what I wrote in my earlier post.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Sozo said:
The crown of life.

Seriously, what else besides Jesus and His life do you need?

And if there are rewards, how would you know? How can you perceive value if you are content?


In any case, that's another subject, because those verses in question are speaking of what I wrote in my earlier post.
I agree it's another topic.....
 

Evee

New member
kmoney said:
Do you believe there will be any sort of rewards in heaven?
The Bible speaks of rewards.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things DONE IN THE BODY, according to what He has done, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
 

Sozo

New member
kmoney said:
What do you believe it means when Paul says we aren't "under the law"?
It means that we are under grace. It's a completely different system. We have been transferred from one domain into another. We are no longer in darkness, but in the light.

A Christian does not move around from one domain into the other. For him, the old is gone. Some people would like you to believe that your actions move you in and out of light, in and out of fellowship, in and out of the Law, or in and out of Christ.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. We no longer belong to that law in any way, shape or form. We no longer belong to that system where the Law reveals sin, which proves our death.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lighthouse said:
godrulz-
When does grace abound?


God's grace covers over a multitude of sins. It is not without cost (cheap) since the application of grace necessitated the death of Christ. Man is sinful to the nth degree. God's grace and mercy are greater than wrath and justice, but not without the death of Christ.

The subjective appropriation of His objective grace is not universally automatic. Despite the efficacy of the cross and abundance of God's grace in Christ, the masses remain condemned and hellbound. The wise condition of extending grace and mercy includes repentant faith. One received the God of grace in order to be under His umbrella of mercy instead of wrath. Believers also experience His grace anew as they respond to the conviction of the HOLY Spirit and deal with the things He puts His finger on in their lives. Grace does not abound and wink at sin so we can have our cake and eat it too. License and legalism are twin extremes. The truth is love expressed through obedience. Grace covers sin, but not while it is persisted in. The forgiveness of non-existent future sins or persisted in sins is foreign to God's dealings with man. God has always disciplined His people (OT- David...Ps. 32; 51; NT- Ananias/Sapphira; Heb. 12- children) and called them to practical holiness (I Peter 1:13-16) and calls them to repentance and renewed obedience. This way grace is not a license for sin and its destructive effects on the believer and others.

Without holiness, no one will see the Lord.
 
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