FYI: I added "archive" to the title of this thread. It's a "keeper". 
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Open Theism, and it’s been called many other things, is the view about God that I strongly believe. It’s about my God and His ability to have feelings, passion, remorse, anger, expectations, sorrow, etc.
This theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God.
It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said we may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior because He died for us.
We Open Theists also believe God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.
It is also the answer to many problem passages and the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen.
I learned about this position over 45 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in the last 25 years.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
This theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God.
It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said we may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior because He died for us.
We Open Theists also believe God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.
It is also the answer to many problem passages and the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen.
I learned about this position over 45 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in the last 25 years.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Philetus
New member
Pastor Hill,
Can you point me to a bibliography that identifies early thinkers and writers that held to what is now called Open theism? Is there such on your web site? It would be helpful.
I have always held to the basics of the Open View. This thread introduced me to the growing network of thinking people who are taking a stand and discussing the whole truth about God and this marvelous creation that sustains God given life.
I love this thread -- all of it – the good, the bad and the ugly, and yes, even Lee!
Good move Knight!
Philetus
lee_merrill
New member
Hi everyone,
2 Corinthians 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Romans 8:36-37 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors [present tense, actually—superconquering!] through him who loved us.
2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ …
Ezekiel 21:3-4 This is what the Lord says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
Romans 8:36-39 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Job 23:10 … he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me [this would be God who is meant], I will come forth as gold.
James 1:2-4 Consider it pure (!) joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Hebrews 11:35 Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Blessings, and even at times blessing through perseverance in trials,
Lee
However, this is clearly stated in Scripture.
2 Corinthians 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Yes, his purpose was to cause Paul to sin.
Yes, because his purpose is different, it is a purpose to harm.
As in keeping Paul humble?
But I wasn’t speaking of temptation, but affliction:
Romans 8:36-37 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors [present tense, actually—superconquering!] through him who loved us.
2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ …
God was wrong in this statement, then?Patman said:
Ezekiel 21:3-4 This is what the Lord says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
Yet the Lord said his sword was to be unsheathed against everyone from south to north, meaning (as the Open View insists that we take the plain sense of verses) everyone.
Certainly!
Romans 8:36-39 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yet God says “I [this is God acting here] am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked.”
Yet “the trouble the Lord had brought on him” is what we read, and what we must subscribe to.
Job 23:10 … he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me [this would be God who is meant], I will come forth as gold.
I agree, affliction to the righteous is sent to refine them.
James 1:2-4 Consider it pure (!) joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
But not if their afflictions do them good.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Hebrews 11:35 Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
Agreed…
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Blessings, and even at times blessing through perseverance in trials,
Lee
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Philetus,
The earliest book I first found which turned me was Science and Prayer by W.W. Kinsley. It was published in 1893. I have a lot of books that gave me more ideas, and I must confess got me into trouble quite a bit with pastors before I became a pastor myself.
I'll have to see if I can find all of my books. I have a large library, and even though it is somewhat orderly, people have borrowed some of my rarest books on the subject and I don't know who borrowed them.
In Christ,
Bob
The earliest book I first found which turned me was Science and Prayer by W.W. Kinsley. It was published in 1893. I have a lot of books that gave me more ideas, and I must confess got me into trouble quite a bit with pastors before I became a pastor myself.
I'll have to see if I can find all of my books. I have a large library, and even though it is somewhat orderly, people have borrowed some of my rarest books on the subject and I don't know who borrowed them.
In Christ,
Bob
Philetus
New member
Lee,
God is for all of us; every last one of us. But, sin still pays a wage.
As for the ‘thorn in the flesh’-- that messenger from Satan -- God did not send it, nor did God remove it. That gives your theology fits. Doesn't it?
5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. 7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance.
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance.
How can you speak of suffering, Lee, without also speaking of temptation? Paul’s temptation was to challenge God --- deny God’s goodness in his suffering. Because of his ‘weakness’ Paul’s credibility was being called into question. Sound familiar? But, suffering is the natural result of living in a fallen world where the enemy of God threatens the very fabric of creation by driving a wedge between God and His creatures, seducing them to question and blame God (as your theology so cleverly and inventively does). The intent and purpose of the enemy is to get us to curse God and die. How can anyone see that as good?
Paul’s perseverance under trial is expressly Christian (Christ like) because Paul still lived in the world and boasted not of his overcoming power but the power of Christ in him. Paul didn’t confess ‘the big head’ because of the revelations given him. He didn't have to. He was saying that living and suffering in the world like anyone else keeps us humble before God unless we cave into the temptation to question God’s loving restraint of his wrath and power and minimize His grace. We can rejoice in the midst of trials and suffering because we know that no matter what the enemy throws at us, God is for us and will not allow more to be thrown at us than WE can bear and that with every temptation to accuse God of tempting us by causing suffering, it is God who provides a way of escape.
Your position is undoubtedly the same kind of bad reasoning that provoked the response, “but you drove me to it” and no doubt added to the hardship of Paul in continuing ‘with great perseverance’ the work of the Gospel among the Corinthians. It is the same kind of thinking that causes much hardship and confusion among people today. As servants of the Gospel, it is perseverance in spite of our weakness that gives our faith, not our suffering, meaning. It is God’s grace in our weakness that is sufficient, not some contrived doctrine of ‘God causes evil for some greater good.”
Philetus
lee_merrill
New member
Yet evil made a contribution to the work of God in the world here, did it not?Philetus said:
Even as the quote you gave illustrates further:
"That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
Well, now...
Because the point at issue is clearest, I think, in the area of unjust suffering.
Certainly the devil's intent is not good, but his deed to bring this about results in good:
Job 23:10 ... when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.
Or here?
James 1:2-4 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Or here?
Hebrews 11:35 Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
Why though, did God not take away the suffering Paul had, the thorn, if he did not cause it, and it was not his intent?
As in the cross, my friend, as in the cross.
Isaiah 53:10-12 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Blessings, in the cross, by the wounds that heal,
Lee
patman
Active member
lee_merrill said:
Lee, your message about God is mislead because you do not understand the bigger picture or story. It is a great injustice to anyone to take a single quote from anyone and take it out of its context. How much more than God's word?
You repeatedly show your tendency to overlook the context of the verses. A single verse is not sufficient to prove the point you wish to make (that God authors sin).
Even when there are clear verses that show you how God himself said this happened, you use some out of context verse to show the contrary.
Pat: God plainly said Satan did it
Lee: This verse over here insinuates God did it.
And you cannot do that. You are going to hurt a lot of people's faith, sinners who would be saved if they thought God were just listen to you and cannot make since out of it. They ask the same thing Job did.
"A good God causes Satan to Cause Evil to make Good?"
"What the...?"
And it doesn't occur to you that God is powerful enough to go straight to the good without need of evil?
ANYWAY
I already explained how you were taking the verse out of it's context. You explained it very well both times you posted it and did not address the answer I gave you already. Yes yes yes, bad things happen to good people when God punishes the wicked. God in another part of the over all story gave instructions on how they might avoid hardships, just not in that particular part.
God sent all of Israel, good and bad, to Babylon. But he only was out to punish the wicked. That is the answer. Comment on that, do not re-explain because I already know what you said before.
Why don't you also explain how it is justice for God to punish the righteous(as you re-explained with your Isaiah verse)?
God sharpens those who he loves, when they go astray he puts them on the right path, he teaches them his ways. He sometimes uses hard lessons, this is true, but he does not cause sin in this, ever. No sin flows from God or even starts with God in any way.
Philetus
New member
Lee,
As in the cross, my friend, the suffering of Christ Jesus on our behalf is the work of sinful men and the result of sin itself. God willed himself to be handed over to sinful men and die. God did not cause our suffering. God entered into our suffering and laid down his life for us. The crucifixion of Jesus was the work of sinful men that God endured not caused. He endured it on our behalf and that results in our salvation. It isn’t the suffering that produces ‘some greater good’. It is faithful obedience in spite of suffering that result in the glory that lies beyond. Satan’s work is death. God’s work is resurrection.
I'm blessed,
Philetus
PS Do you even read patman's posts?
As in the cross, my friend, the suffering of Christ Jesus on our behalf is the work of sinful men and the result of sin itself. God willed himself to be handed over to sinful men and die. God did not cause our suffering. God entered into our suffering and laid down his life for us. The crucifixion of Jesus was the work of sinful men that God endured not caused. He endured it on our behalf and that results in our salvation. It isn’t the suffering that produces ‘some greater good’. It is faithful obedience in spite of suffering that result in the glory that lies beyond. Satan’s work is death. God’s work is resurrection.
I'm blessed,
Philetus
PS Do you even read patman's posts?
Philetus
New member
patman said:
Thanks patman. It really is. But many are so clouded in their thinking that they can’t read a simple statement or verse without all the baggage of preconceived doctrine. I think it was godrulz that warned me early on to “never underestimate the power of preexistent doctrines.” How right he was. Keep up the good postings. I enjoy your stuff.
:grave:
Philetus
patman
Active member
How Can God 100% know the future when we see this happening in the Bible?
How Can God 100% know the future when we see this happening in the Bible?
Jeremiah 20:4
For thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends; and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and your eyes shall see it. I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive to Babylon and slay them with the sword.
2 Kings 25
21 Then the king of Babylon struck them and put them to death at Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive from its own land. 22 Then he made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, governor over the people who remained in the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had left.
25 But it happened in the seventh month that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, of the royal family, came with ten men and struck and killed Gedaliah, the Jews, as well as the Chaldeans who were with him at Mizpah. 26 And all the people, small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose and went to Egypt; for they were afraid of the Chaldeans.
How Can God 100% know the future when we see this happening in the Bible?
Jeremiah 20:4
For thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends; and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and your eyes shall see it. I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive to Babylon and slay them with the sword.
2 Kings 25
21 Then the king of Babylon struck them and put them to death at Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive from its own land. 22 Then he made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, governor over the people who remained in the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had left.
25 But it happened in the seventh month that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, of the royal family, came with ten men and struck and killed Gedaliah, the Jews, as well as the Chaldeans who were with him at Mizpah. 26 And all the people, small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose and went to Egypt; for they were afraid of the Chaldeans.
Berean Todd
New member
patman said:
All of Judah was given into the hand of Babylon. Just because they did not remove them all to another land, you are ignoring the fact that all of Judah became a part of the Babylonian Empire. It doesn't matter where they lived, they were still in Babylonian rule. You did not post verses 23-24, but what happened between the 2 excerts you did make from 2 Kings is simply that some of the officers were affraid of Chaldean rule and decided to run away. Nothing in the prophecy says that no one would run away or escape from the Babylonian rule. God did give all of Judah into the hands of the Babylonians, for many years there was no longer an independant Jewish state at this point.
patman
Active member
I didn't ignore anything, you ignored the verse:Berean Todd said:
Jeremiah 20:4
For thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends; and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and your eyes shall see it. I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive to Babylon and slay them with the sword.
lee_merrill
New member
Doesn't this show that God caused this? And weren't the Babylonians sinful?patman said:
You see, saying "out of context!" does not consitute an argument, and the Bible is clear about God causing sinful deeds.
Blessings,
Lee
lee_merrill said:
Satan, demons, man (will) are sufficient explanation for sinful deeds. God does NOT cause sinful deeds since this is contrary to His holy nature. He opposes sin (Jesus). He does not affirm it as His will nor is it under His meticulous control. Omnicasuality is a serious error when talking about the providence or sovereignty of God.
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