Jadespring and 's/he-is-all-in-all'

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Jadespring

New member
Rimi said:
Jade, Jesus had no trouble with the gender of HIS Father. Why do you? If this Being wants to refer to Himself as male, why is that so hard for you to accept?

We've been through this already Rimi. Look back through the thread if you want a detailed explanation.

I do not and will not consider God as being male as we as human's conceptualize 'maleness' and if you paid attention you see that there is much Blblical evidence for this feeling.
I said however I have no problem using the term other. However using it does not make me think of God as male any more then it makes me think of God as female.
Sorry but there is no way that you are going to change my mind or make me think otherwise.
I will not anthropomorphize God into a human sexually based image. Doing so borders on idolatry in my mind.

Plus I believe that God is his vastness really doesn't give a rat's butt about our pronoun details of the English language.
 

Rimi

New member
Jaded, you don't have to consider God as WE conceptualize maleness. You just have to deal with the way HE conceptualizes HIS maleness. He thinks He's a male. Why shouldn't you.

If God didn't give a rat's butt, then why did HE bother to specify? You've been going round and round on this and still can't get away from the fact that it's how HE sees HIMself that you should accept.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Dave Miller said:
Hey, I thought I posted a reply in here somewhere... You deleting things, Nin?

Since you are acting a fool again instead of replying, I thought I'd note something real quick.

Dave Miller said:
Now being born evil is an Augustinian and consequently
Calvanistic concept I believe, not necessarily scriptural in origin,

And then...

Dave Miller said:
3. The pagan / Calvinist setup. Wow. Claiming that your opponent uses pagan philosophy is a pretty low blow, (confession: my darker side kind of likes it,) ...

I can never get enough of you being a hypocrite, dave. Keep talkin... :)
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
wickwoman said:
It's a concept we discuss in Buddhism, that is, it is difficult to see where you end and God begins. The danger is in thinking of God as an old man with a gray beard. Or even in thinking God inhabits a body or has a personality. It's really something we just can't know right now. And it's the carrot forever dangling on a stick before us. It prevents us from seeing what's here right now. And, there is plenty here to keep us busy.


I was wondering how long it would take you to find your priest and his new congregant :) It's always enlightning to see who will agree with you posts :)
 

Balder

New member
Nineveh said:
I was wondering how long it would take you to find your priest and his new congregant :) It's always enlightning to see who will agree with you posts :)
Yes, it is, isn't it? They're often the more enlightened ones. :D
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Jadespring said:
:) Nin I am well aware of where this thread came from. I never said God was joking.
You said that I said it because of how you intepret the bible.

No, I said you said it because there is a whole thread there for you to read where you did. Or have you changed your beliefs and now think God really does mean what He says about homos?


As I have explained in previous posts on this thread that using s/he is a common way to convey gender neutraility when writing the English language. As of yet English has no pronoun that conveys the concept of gender neutraility in the way that it comes across in Hebrew. Words are only symbols of concepts.

"It" conveys neutrality. S/he conveys hermaphroditism.

I never said he didn't paint and accurate picture. :) You even said yourself that the Bible has metaphor in it. ;) And I will repeat again. I am not at all talking about "hidden' meaning. I am talking about a holistic undersatndign of truth as conveyed through story.
And please stop telling me what I think.
The proper pharasing would be "Jade, I think that you're saying that God does not paint and accurate picture."

I didn't say what you want me to say, sorry. And please don't plan on it any time soon :)

It boils down to God telling a "story" or God having the Authority and Power to record the actual events.


Wow okay now we're getting somewhere.
So you do know what a moral of a story is. This is what I am talkign about.
This sneetch story means something more then what is literally on the page. Unless of course you're telling me that you believe the story is literally, historically and factually true?

Sneetches are a children's bedtime story, not a Book claimed By God to tell us things that are important, like how we got here, and why things are like they are. Sneetches in context are in a story. The fall in context is history.

This is exactly t the type truth that I am talking about. It is by no means hidden.

Amazing. You will take a children's book at face value, but you won't take God's Word at face value.

No I'm not missing it at all Nin. I understand perfectly what you are saying which is why I keep responding and saying NO you're understanding of what I'm saying is incorrect.
Why are you so convinced that this 'hidden' meaning you keep talking about (which I keep saying is not what I'm talking about) is equal to being opposite?

I am used to being ignorant in your eyes. Which underscores my point about your esoteric understanding being exactly as it is defined.

I've already answered you. Your stand on sexual immorality is not Biblical. Which underscores my point about your need to use esoteric spiritualization to make like God really can't tell us what happened in the beginning accurately. It gives you the freedom you need to undermine the Law. Thanks for making my points :)

Yes and still it fall to matter of you're own interpretaition. It's so weird that you cannot understand this idea. YOu can never, ever, ever get away from the fact that how you read and come to an understanding of your world is dependent and influenced by you and you're experiences. Thus you are a part of your interpretation whether you listen to someone else or not. To claim absolute rightness in a big picture sense is just arrogant IMO.
None of us can ever get away from it. It is simply a function of human cognition. It's nothing to be afraid of. It is just the way it is.

I'm not shocked you don't believe the God of that Book can honor His promises. He can't get people to write an accurate account of history either.

Nice try at discrediting my witness. But it was the Holy Spirit guiding me as I read His Word that lead me first to understand I was a sinner in need of Him and then to Salvation. Your and my witnesses are far far apart.

It may not be a denom but you still belong to a identifiable group that interprets scripture in a particular way.

Right, the Body of Christ.

I let the weight of Scripture determine if a man is telling the Truth, not the other way around. Instead of distancing yourself from the Bereans, you might want to find out what made them "more noble".

Yes perhaps it is a difference. However it's the meaning or the "moral" that one gets from the story that is the important part.
And even if we know for sure that what we are reading is historically accurate different people can take different meaning or morals from accurate depictions.

True, unless it undermines the Gospel or starts appearing as if God is saying something different (read: unholy or wicked).

I still don't get why you think that in my interpretation I am saying God is lying.

Because a Mighty Creator God Who claims to be the Truth shouldn't be telling "stories" when the Truth suffices.

I betting that you do all the time. Or do you actually think that Jesus meant that we were to actually, literally drink his blood and eat his flesh?

Read that again:

there is no need to spiritualize historical accounts when that is the way they should be taken in context.

I've already given you my interpretation of the story. We were exiled because we turned away from God, thought ourselves above God (hubris) and thus fell out of right relationship with God. The expulsion from Eden is the consequence for we cannot live in paradise if we do not know who God is. It is the seperation from God. And seperation leads to sin.
Jesus came to provide us a way back into reconciliation with God.
It has nothing to do with sex.

I asked you why we were expelled. The Bible tells us the exact event that lead to Adam and Eve being ousted from the garden. You still haven't explained what it was that promted God to that action.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Balder said:
Yes, it is, isn't it? They're often the more enlightened ones. :D

Christ is the Light of the world, it's the pagans who call darkness light. Did you have anything to add to this topic?
 

Jadespring

New member
Rimi said:
Jaded, you don't have to consider God as WE conceptualize maleness. You just have to deal with the way HE conceptualizes HIS maleness. He thinks He's a male. Why shouldn't you.

If God didn't give a rat's butt, then why did HE bother to specify? You've been going round and round on this and still can't get away from the fact that it's how HE sees HIMself that you should accept.

Actually I'm not going round and round at all.
You're the one on the merry go round here and can't seem to let it go. I'm solid in what I believe. You just can't deal with it for some reason.

Quit bringing it and we won't have to talk about it anymore. :) It's pretty simple.
 

Jadespring

New member
Nineveh said:
No, I said you said it because there is a whole thread there for you to read where you did. Or have you changed your beliefs and now think God really does mean what He says about homos?
How did we get back on homos again? Leave it alone Nin. That''s another thread.
You keep bugging me to stay on topic.
You're brand of Christianity seems awfully focused on sex. It comes up all the time. It's kinda scary.


"It" conveys neutrality. S/he conveys hermaphroditism.
So now you're an expert on English usage as well. Funny. Can you please state your credentials and expertise in world literature and English usage? ;)
Sure if makes you happy I'll use the word "it" instead of s/he and if it makes you happy I'll go tell my English lit professors that Nin says that using the letters s/he to convery gender- neutrailty is wrong.

I didn't say what you want me to say, sorry. And please don't plan on it any time soon :)

It boils down to God telling a "story" or God having the Authority and Power to record the actual events.
I know you wouldn't get this. :rolleyes:
You really can't understand the problem with communicating with people in this manner. Can you.


Sneetches are a children's bedtime story, not a Book claimed By God to tell us things that are important, like how we got here, and why things are like they are. Sneetches in context are in a story. The fall in context is history.

:doh:
And the point flies right over the head again. I'm really thinking this whole conversation is futile. :)
Do you really want to have a conversation or do you just want to keep telling me how right you are?

Amazing. You will take a children's book at face value, but you won't take God's Word at face value.
:doh:
Nin. Please read my words and try to get it. This is not what I said AT ALL.

It was a comment about how we percieve and udnertsand story!!!

I am used to being ignorant in your eyes. Which underscores my point about your esoteric understanding being exactly as it is defined.
I have never once said you are ignorant. :) And even if I did how would that underscore your point.
You are really not making much sense here.

I've already answered you. Your stand on sexual immorality is not Biblical. Which underscores my point about your need to use esoteric spiritualization to make like God really can't tell us what happened in the beginning accurately. It gives you the freedom you need to undermine the Law. Thanks for making my points :)
Actually I have not made any of your points. You're points are wavering around all over the place because you're misconstruing and reading into most of what I say with preconcieved understanding and assumptions.
YOu keep saying that I am undermining the Law. Can you please give me a rundown on exactly what the Law is so we can get to the bottom of it once and for all.
(Don't bother about the homo part. You've told me that part enough.) What's the rest of the Law that we need to follow as Christians?"


I'm not shocked you don't believe the God of that Book can honor His promises. He can't get people to write an accurate account of history either.

Nice try at discrediting my witness. But it was the Holy Spirit guiding me as I read His Word that lead me first to understand I was a sinner in need of Him and then to Salvation. Your and my witnesses are far far apart.
How is this discrediting your witness? You're human are you not? Do you not live, breath and have brain functions like other humans? It's called cognition. Do some research on something on how people learn and understand things. It might be really enlightening.

And it's pretty damn nervy to talk to me about discrediting witnesses. You're whole line of thought and accusations are one big discrediting attempt. You're whole goal is to discredit my witness.

Right, the Body of Christ.

I let the weight of Scripture determine if a man is telling the Truth, not the other way around. Instead of distancing yourself from the Bereans, you might want to find out what made them "more noble".
I know what Bereans are. And truthfully I wouldn't place what I've been hearing here anywhere in that neighborhood.

True, unless it undermines the Gospel or starts appearing as if God is saying something different (read: unholy or wicked).
And again this is up to an individuals interpretaion. Sorry but this still does nothing to prove anythign one way or the other.

Because a Mighty Creator God Who claims to be the Truth shouldn't be telling "stories" when the Truth suffices.
Stories are truth. And in every truth there is a story. A story is a sacred way of communicating truth. Has been since we could talk to each other.
It's not just something you read to kids at bedtime.


Read that again:

there is no need to spiritualize historical accounts when that is the way they should be taken in context.
Then you do read different meaning into what the words literally say. Cool

I asked you why we were expelled. The Bible tells us the exact event that lead to Adam and Eve being ousted from the garden. You still haven't explained what it was that promted God to that action.
[/QUOTE]
Ah alright, but that parts pretty obvious. Literally- We ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. We turned our back on what God had to say about the whole thing and onto the reason why God expelled us. Which I have already explained. Twice now.

Question is what does that mean to us.
Explain the meaning of the story? What is the moral? ;)
What is the 'truth' that the story gives us?


And why are you still continuing to refuse to answer my question? That's three times now.
It's troubling. You say you want to understand and when I try to ask something so that perhaps I could begin to explain it an you refuse. This makes me think that you really don't want to try. Is this true?
Refresh just in case: It's the one about left field.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Jadespring said:
Why do you?

Why shouldn't I?


It just doesn't. Calling something a metaphor is a lazy way of defending your argument, especially if you can't explain what the metaphor means.

Like it says in the story.

I thought you said the story was metaphorical. Like Nineveh, I want to know what you think really happened.

It's from the Bible.

What -- the Bible calls the creation account a metaphor? Where?

It makes sense.

Not to me, it doesn't. But then again, we're operating from a different set of presuppositions. I believe God is real, and that He really revealed Himself to us. You seem to think that God is a concept we've been figuring out on our own.

What's your explanation?

The same one the Bible gives -- man disobeyed God and fell; Christ came to save us.

Wasn't refering to all to geneologies.

Well, they're there. What do you make of them, and why would they be used to tie historical people to people that existed only in a metaphor?

I was refering to the creation stories themselves..

I told you -- there's only one creation story.

Thats one way of looking at it. Especially if you are depending on just the english translation and assuming that's all there is.

What makes you think I'm depending only on the English translation and assuming that's all there is?

Though if you actually study the origins, texts and scholarship about when and how these stories came about historically and specifically look at answering "Why are these stories told in this way?" you could see it differently.

No, I don't think I could, because I really believe in God, and I really believe that He revealed Himself to the world. I don't think you do. It sounds to me like you think we made it all up.

However none of this is important in the big picture. Jesus and what he did is what counts.

Oh, I think it's very important. If man didn't really fall, then why do I need Jesus? Why can't I just go to God on my own?

If you want to believe that it actually, historically happened and the world was created in six day etc etc. Then go for it.

I don't need your permission, but thanks anyway. God said He created the universe in six days (and not just in Genesis). I believe Him. Why don't you?

The outcome of the story is still pretty much the same.

What's the outcome, and what story are you talking about? Is another metaphor coming up?
 
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wickwoman

New member
Ahem . . . "it" refers to a "something" not a "someone." And the reason a person sometimes uses he/she instead of chosing one or the other is often becase they don't know what sex the person is or, in the case of a spirit being there are no sexual organs. How hard is that concept to grasp?

Some of us want to give God a name, a face, and an address for goodness sake. All for a being who we do not know exists for sure. Someone was quoting Jesus/Matthew above. For goodness sake, how do you know Matthew accurately quoted Jesus? Then someone else above said God calls "himself" a "he." If this weren't so heartbreaking it would be hilarious!
 

wickwoman

New member
As a member of the church of "Dave" I would also add that Jesus had similar lowlifes following him around. There is something to be said for that. I gravitate toward those who are spreading love, like Dave and Balder, not the supposed truth smackers who should more accurately be called insult smackers. And, anyway, what part of "the truth hurts?" I've been wondering about that for a while now.

More often than not, I find myself wanting to step up and defend posters like Dave and Balder. Because it seems they are like lambs among the wolves around here. Hmmmm, I think someone once called Jesus a lamb . . . The similarities are mind boggling!
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
wickwoman said:
As a member of the church of "Dave" I would also add that Jesus had similar lowlifes following him around. There is something to be said for that. I gravitate toward those who are spreading love, like Dave and Balder, not the supposed truth smackers who should more accurately be called insult smackers. And, anyway, what part of "the truth hurts?" I've been wondering about that for a while now.

More often than not, I find myself wanting to step up and defend posters like Dave and Balder. Because it seems they are like lambs among the wolves around here. Hmmmm, I think someone once called Jesus a lamb . . . The similarities are mind boggling!

I have the same temptation. On the other hand, the Balders and Daves of the world can hold their own.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Jadespring said:
How did we get back on homos again? Leave it alone Nin. That''s another thread.

You wanted an example of how God really isn't saying what He means.

You keep bugging me to stay on topic.
You're brand of Christianity seems awfully focused on sex. It comes up all the time. It's kinda scary.

Well, you closed up shop over there, but these are all part of how you view God. Anyway, Christians focus on what God says is the proper use of sex. It's others who would introduce perversion even into the pulpit. Personally, I have no need to try to unsay what God has said. I'll leave that up to you.

So now you're an expert on English usage as well. Funny. Can you please state your credentials and expertise in world literature and English usage? ;)
Sure if makes you happy I'll use the word "it" instead of s/he and if it makes you happy I'll go tell my English lit professors that Nin says that using the letters s/he to convery gender- neutrailty is wrong.

Isn't it you that has claimed many times that you can't seem to express yourself in english?

Anyway, If you feel comfy refering to God the Father and God the Son as "it", feel free.

I know you wouldn't get this. :rolleyes:
You really can't understand the problem with communicating with people in this manner. Can you.

No, I don't get why God would need to write a "story" when that is not how it is recorded in context.


It was a comment about how we percieve and udnertsand story!!!

Are you over looking context again? God did not indicate what He had recodered was a story but an account. Jesus Himself backs up Genesis. Was He using "esoteric spiritualization" too? Hardly. He was there.

I have never once said you are ignorant. :) And even if I did how would that underscore your point.
You are really not making much sense here.

How many times have you told me I just can't/don't understand you?

Ignorant: Lacking education or knowledge. Unaware or uninformed.

It's pretty evident I would have to study your theology to understand what God really means. How many times do we need to go over this before you understand the point?


Actually I have not made any of your points. You're points are wavering around all over the place because you're misconstruing and reading into most of what I say with preconcieved understanding and assumptions.

That is a lie. How many times have I asked you what you meant? If you want an example of "preconcieved understanding and assumptions" take a look at how you have tried to pigeon hole me into denom dogma.

YOu keep saying that I am undermining the Law. Can you please give me a rundown on exactly what the Law is so we can get to the bottom of it once and for all.
(Don't bother about the homo part. You've told me that part enough.) What's the rest of the Law that we need to follow as Christians?"

Oh, ok, you want an example of how you undermine the Law, but I can't use the example you have given. Right.

Way to completely miss the whole point. Jade...

Geewiz. Who is the Law for?!

How is this discrediting your witness? You're human are you not? Do you not live, breath and have brain functions like other humans? It's called cognition. Do some research on something on how people learn and understand things. It might be really enlightening.

How? I'll tell you, thanks for asking.

You can not accept my witness without adding your inaccurate disclaimers to it. I prayed and read the Word, that is how I came to Christ. There was no one there but God and me. Not Lutherans or Lutheran teaching, not "esoteric spiritualization", or any other human influence. I wanted to know what God had to say for Himself, I prayed for Truth. You seem to need to believe I am lying. But my witness is what it is. God really is Powerful enough to fulfill His promises. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

And it's pretty damn nervy to talk to me about discrediting witnesses. You're whole line of thought and accusations are one big discrediting attempt. You're whole goal is to discredit my witness.

Although, even in the paragraph above this one you tried one more time. I have no trouble accepting your witness about a spirit coming to you. What I find odd is your lack of concern over testing the spirits. That whole concept was foreign to you. Have you looked into that any since the other thread?

I know what Bereans are. And truthfully I wouldn't place what I've been hearing here anywhere in that neighborhood.

Well, on your part anyway. See when you claimed homos are ok? I looked it up and found what you were preaching wasn't true.

Then you do read different meaning into what the words literally say. Cool

I take what is said in context.


Ah alright, but that parts pretty obvious. Literally- We ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. We turned our back on what God had to say about the whole thing and onto the reason why God expelled us. Which I have already explained. Twice now.

Question is what does that mean to us.
Explain the meaning of the story? What is the moral? ;)
What is the 'truth' that the story gives us?


And why are you still continuing to refuse to answer my question? That's three times now.
It's troubling. You say you want to understand and when I try to ask something so that perhaps I could begin to explain it an you refuse. This makes me think that you really don't want to try. Is this true?
Refresh just in case: It's the one about left field.

What's troubling is how many times I have to ask you the same question to get an answer. Want to take another shot at it? I know what God says, it's you that has an "esoteric spiritualization" of the "story", so what does "We ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge" really mean?
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
wickwoman said:
Ahem . . . "it" refers to a "something" not a "someone." And the reason a person sometimes uses he/she instead of chosing one or the other is often becase they don't know what sex the person is or, in the case of a spirit being there are no sexual organs. How hard is that concept to grasp?

It's not a hard concept to grasp. But when applied to the God of Abraham it isn't accurate.

Some of us want to give God a name, a face, and an address for goodness sake. All for a being who we do not know exists for sure. Someone was quoting Jesus/Matthew above. For goodness sake, how do you know Matthew accurately quoted Jesus? Then someone else above said God calls "himself" a "he." If this weren't so heartbreaking it would be hilarious!

Good for you, no one is telling you what to believe, so return the fave. Some of us actually believe God revealed Himself in His Word.

Do you really think defending jade's "protestant Christianity" with your paganism is helping her cause?
 
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