Noah's Flood on Mars

ThePhy said:

If Bob carries the same devotion to truth in science that he does in his pursual of social reform, he will proactively make contact with the source he garnered the Neandertal musical instrument fable from and ask them to discontinue spreading it.

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From post # 39: "...this information was taken from an article in Discover magazine. As it turns out, the article was an “April Fools” practical joke. For several years the magazine published one bogus article each April, and did not identify it as a hoax. They have since discontinued this practice. The information regarding the discovery of a tuba-like instrument, bagpipe, triangle, and xylophone were all part of this prank by the magazine."

If Bob carries the same devotion to truth in science that he does in his pursual of social reform, he will proactively make contact with the source he garnered the Neandertal musical instrument fable from and ask them to discontinue spreading it.

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Truely. It would also be nice if he'd make the same proactive effort to be intellectually honest regarding science so that we can avoid debacles like this. If the few of us that bother weren't here to catch these sorts of things (the Mars flooding issue, or the neandertal DNA quote, the neandertal bone study, or the pseudogenes thread), imagine how many people would go right on believing something that is dishonest or intentionally misleading.

The same applies to evolutionists.

The same applies to evolutionists.

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We try our best.

One point for Bob, minus one for AIG

One point for Bob, minus one for AIG

Thank you Jefferson, but I very seriously doubt that Bob initially garnered his incorrect information from the Discovery magazine article. Earlier in the show, Bob several times specifically recommends that the audience subscribe to “TJ” (Technical Journal), a publication of Answers in Genesis. He says that much of what he is speaking about is from that source. Some time before Bob’s broadcast a page was added to the AIG website which repeats the misinformation that Bob passed on about the Neandertals, plus a couple of the other items of scientific misinformation that Bob spread during his show. Based on Bob’s own commentary, it is apparent that much of what Bob commented on in his show was derived from AIG sources.

So it was AIG that I was inferring that Bob should notify of their mistake.

However, it appears AIG is not as forthright as Bob is about acknowledging their errors. They seem to prefer to silently hide them and pretend they never occurred. Within the past few days, AIG has modified the web page and without any notice to the readers that is was changed, deleted the reference to 5 musical instruments and also deleted the reference to the Discover article in which it originally appeared. AIG, that paragon of truth and uprightness, gets caught in a lie, and so they silently hide the evidence. Good Christian source?? (BTW – for those of you who doubt this, you can find an original copy of the offending web page in the internet archive.)

AIG should heed the message in the very last line of the web page:

The time has come for the truth to be told.

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Someone (maybe Bob?) already has made AIG aware of the erroneous claim.

Since Bob was talking about AIG’s “Technical Journal” in his show, I suspect that erroneous Neandertal claim was made there as well. Published journals are not as amenable to doctoring as web pages. Anyone have a copy?

Bob several times specifically recommends that the audience subscribe to “TJ” (Technical Journal), a publication of Answers in Genesis. He says that much of what he is speaking about is from that source.

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Thanks for your post Phy. The Technical Journal is referred to as a "peer-reviewed journal by the AIG here. As we all know, ICR apologized for falling for the April '97 discover article in which Neandertals were claimed to have used "five different types of instruments". Yet, as late as 2004 the "Technical Journal" published an article which still cited the 1997 Discover Joke. Brad Harrub's article "Lunatics, Lucy and a little book for the school library" was published in 2004 in the TJ (TJ 18(3):35–40, 2004). In it, Brad says, "In 1996, however, researchers were forced to re-evaluate their long-held views on Neandertals, due to the discovery of five different types of musical instruments, items of personal ornamentation (similar to our jewelry) and even the first example of a Neandertal cave painting." The discover magazine article was cited to support part of this statement. Brad even goes on to use an argument that AIG says specifically not to use! And this passes for a peer-review journal?

Brad's article is still available online. However, it has been modified and no longer includes the Discover citation. The argument which AIG states shouldn't be used has also been modified. There is no notice of change or correction posted. Instead, it was silently changed without telling anyone. Ironically, the article concludes with "The time has come for the truth to be told."

Here's the current version of the article. The original umodified version can be found here .

Another Archaeological Find Supports the Bible (and the Open View: -ha!)

Another Archaeological Find Supports the Bible (and the Open View: -ha!)

Biblical Pool Uncovered in Jerusalem, August 9, 2005

Workers repairing a sewage pipe in the Old City of Jerusalem have discovered the biblical Pool of Siloam, a freshwater reservoir that was a major gathering place for ancient Jews making religious pilgrimages to the city and the reputed site where Jesus cured a man blind from birth, according to the Gospel of John.

The pool was fed by the now famous Hezekiah's Tunnel and is "a much grander affair" than archeologists previously believed, with three tiers of stone stairs allowing easy access to the water, said Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review, which reported the find Monday.

"Scholars have said that there wasn't a Pool of Siloam and that John was using a religious conceit" to illustrate a point, said New Testament scholar James H. Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary. "Now we have found the Pool of Siloam … exactly where John said it was."

A gospel that was thought to be "pure theology is now shown to be grounded in history," he said.


See entire article at: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-siloam9aug09,0,5974214.story?coll=la-home-science

By the way, how does this support the Open View ? Just search for Siloam in the Battle Royale X thread!

-Bob

Bob Enyart said:

Biblical Pool Uncovered in Jerusalem, August 9, 2005

Workers repairing a sewage pipe in the Old City of Jerusalem have discovered the biblical Pool of Siloam, a freshwater reservoir that was a major gathering place for ancient Jews making religious pilgrimages to the city and the reputed site where Jesus cured a man blind from birth, according to the Gospel of John.

The pool was fed by the now famous Hezekiah's Tunnel and is "a much grander affair" than archeologists previously believed, with three tiers of stone stairs allowing easy access to the water, said Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review, which reported the find Monday.

"Scholars have said that there wasn't a Pool of Siloam and that John was using a religious conceit" to illustrate a point, said New Testament scholar James H. Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary. "Now we have found the Pool of Siloam … exactly where John said it was."

A gospel that was thought to be "pure theology is now shown to be grounded in history," he said.


See entire article at: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-siloam9aug09,0,5974214.story?coll=la-home-science

By the way, how does this support the Open View ? Just search for Siloam in the Battle Royale X thread!

-Bob

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this is really great stuff, but i fail to see how it supports the veracity of the alleged spiritual truth of the bible. it doesn't support the divinity of christ, it does not support the existence of christ, it does not support miracles, it does not support theology, it does not support the resurrection of the dead, etc. what it supports is that the author was aware of the local surroundings. if i wrote a comic book about a local super hero and included the local pool hall, would that mean that the super hero was a true, real life character?

It supports the historical veracity, allsmiles. But I don't expect you to understand that since you don't give a rip if your neighbor is raped.

Rimi said:

It supports the historical veracity, allsmiles. But I don't expect you to understand that since you don't give a rip if your neighbor is raped.

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and since Denver, CO existed when Stephen King wrote The Stand, does that mean The Stand is just as historically accurate as the bible?

allsmiles said:

and since Denver, CO existed when Stephen King wrote The Stand, does that mean The Stand is just as historically accurate as the bible?

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No, it's just an example of how people wrongly dispute the Bible's historical accuracy.

allsmiles said:

and since Denver, CO existed when Stephen King wrote The Stand, does that mean The Stand is just as historically accurate as the bible?

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No, it means that Christianity-bashers who have been saying there wasn't a Pool of Siloam have been proven wrong while the Bible has been right (again) the entire time.

Jefferson said:

No, it means that Christianity-bashers who have been saying there wasn't a Pool of Siloam have been proven wrong while the Bible has been right (again) the entire time.

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who's been saying the pool of siloam didn't exist?

and what exactly does it prove right? that the author had local area knowledge?

how does the existence of the pool prove the theology? how does it prove the divinity of christ? how does it prove the existence of jesus?

Allsmiles, it proves just what Jefferson said.

Sorry that scares you.

Jefferson didn't say anything. he said

the Bible has been right (again) the entire time.

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.

I asked

and what exactly does it prove right? that the author had local area knowledge?

how does the existence of the pool prove the theology? how does it prove the divinity of christ? how does it prove the existence of jesus?

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there's nothing to be scared of.

For you, sure there is.

You have all of the internet to find that there have been people saying this pool didn't exist since it wasn't anywhere to be found. Therefore, they claim, the bible must be full of other inaccuracies, even the story of Jesus. This has been a main way to attack Jesus' claim, this silly pool. Well, now it's found. If they can claim all that without the pool, Jefferson gets some leeway now that it's found.

Bug off.

Rimi said:

You have all of the internet to find that there have been people saying this pool didn't exist since it wasn't anywhere to be found. Therefore, they claim, the bible must be full of other inaccuracies, even the story of Jesus. This has been a main way to attack Jesus' claim, this silly pool. Well, now it's found. If they can claim all that without the pool, Jefferson gets some leeway now that it's found.

Bug off.

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listen, i've never used that tactic, and i never would. i am not attacking, i'm asking simple questions, i answered all of your questions, now reciprocate.

how does the discovery of the pool verify the divinity of christ? how does the discovery of the pool verify the existence of jesus? how does the discovery of the pool verify your theology?

The pool proves the existence of a context and a place. That is all.

What's funny is that Protestants sniff at the "superstitious" Catholics with their relics, then trip over themselves pointing at historical finds like this pool. Kettle, meet pot.

Of itself, the pool's discovery is historically interesting but does not prove a thing.

allsmiles said:

how does the discovery of the pool verify the divinity of christ? how does the discovery of the pool verify the existence of jesus? how does the discovery of the pool verify your theology?

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We aren't claiming it "verifies" it but we are claiming that it supports our claim of the historical accuracy of the Bible which is one of the main things skeptics try to disparage in order to try to disparage the historical figure of Jesus Himself.