A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

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Servo

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
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Freak said:
Paul told the Ephesians that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (see Ephesians 1:3-4). The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.
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God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is referring to the Body of Christ, not individuals.
 
Agape4Robin

Agape4Robin

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Agape4Robin said:
I had this same conversation with :Brandon: .......he said that time was not created....hang on, let me see if I can find it.............
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Lighthouse said:
He created measurements of time, but not time itself. If there had been no time, then God could not have created anything.
Beginning does not mean time itself, it is a representation of a point in time. The beginning of creation is a point in time. Not the beginning of time.
No. He established measurements of time. Not time itself.
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This is from the thread "God in time" post #55.

Sorry it took so long.............
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

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Shimei said:
God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is referring to the Body of Christ, not individuals.
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Thank you. Rep points awarded for truth spoken.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

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Agape4Robin said:
This is from the thread "God in time" post #55.

Sorry it took so long.............
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His answer seems plausable. I'll have to pray for more wisdom on this matter.
 
Freak

Freak

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Shimei said:
God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is referring to the Body of Christ, not individuals.
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Individuals make up the Body of Christ. The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.

Perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this:

Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25). How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?

Did he not also know that Paul would do the responsible thing and tell the soldiers that if the sailors did not stay with the ship, they could not be saved? Surely, the Lord knew that the soldiers would make the right decision. The Lord was not waiting to find out what they would do. Though there are passages that indicate that the Lord tests us, and "awaits" our obedience, these are certainly anthropomorphic. There are far too many affirmations in Scripture that God knows all things, from the beginning, to think otherwise.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Freak said:
Individuals make up the Body of Christ. The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.

Perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this:

Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25). How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?

Did he not also know that Paul would do the responsible thing and tell the soldiers that if the sailors did not stay with the ship, they could not be saved? Surely, the Lord knew that the soldiers would make the right decision. The Lord was not waiting to find out what they would do. Though there are passages that indicate that the Lord tests us, and "awaits" our obedience, these are certainly anthropomorphic. There are far too many affirmations in Scripture that God knows all things, from the beginning, to think otherwise.
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Freak, God purposed it.
 
Freak

Freak

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drbrumley said:
Freak, God purposed it.
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Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25).

YES OR NO?

How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

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I guess you cant read. God PURPOSED IT> Remember, Paul was on a mission from God, directed by God. He had to go to Rome. This is a far cry from God knowing I will buy a soda tomorrow. You think?
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
To all you closed view thiests out there, is this a good reflection of your view? If not, why not?

A) God is perfect and He cannot ever be wrong...
B) Then God's knowledge about the future is never wrong...
Then Necessarily C...
C) We can do nothing other than what God knows we will do.
Then Necessarily D...
D) We have no choice between two or more options, No Free-will.
 
Freak

Freak

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drbrumley said:
I. God PURPOSED IT>
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Then you admit God was surely aware of every circumstance. Correct? As how could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place? Think this through.
 
Servo

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Freak said:
Individuals make up the Body of Christ. The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.

Perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this:

Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25). How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?

Did he not also know that Paul would do the responsible thing and tell the soldiers that if the sailors did not stay with the ship, they could not be saved? Surely, the Lord knew that the soldiers would make the right decision. The Lord was not waiting to find out what they would do. Though there are passages that indicate that the Lord tests us, and "awaits" our obedience, these are certainly anthropomorphic. There are far too many affirmations in Scripture that God knows all things, from the beginning, to think otherwise.
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God knows everything that there is to know.

Going back to the previous point though, the Body of Christ is something God created. Of course individuals make up the Body of Christ, that is how God made it. But which individuals make up the Body of Christ, that is up to the individual, if they want to join (accept Christ as their Savior) or not.
 
G

godrulz

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drbrumley said:
Um, God created time so it is His time we are in.
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I thought you were on our side. Time is not a thing that is created. Duration/sequence/succession was experienced by the Godhead from eternity past.
 
G

godrulz

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Freak said:
godrulz, think this through, please...God's Word is clear!

O Lord, you have searched me and you know me, You know when I sit and when I rise…You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways (see Psalm 139).

The assertion is that God, knows everything we do. In verse one, David speaks to the Lord and acknowledges that God has looked deep into his heart, and discovered the truth of all that is there. When the Psalmist moves from place to place, and even when he takes his seat or rises from it, God is not caught unaware. He knows everything we do.

godrulz, there is a very good example of this in the New Covenant. Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25). How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?

Did he not also know that Paul would do the responsible thing and tell the soldiers that if the sailors did not stay with the ship, they could not be saved? Surely, the Lord knew that the soldiers would make the right decision. The Lord was not waiting to find out what they would do. Though there are passages that indicate that the Lord tests us, and "awaits" our obedience, these are certainly anthropomorphic. There are far too many affirmations in Scripture that God knows all things, from the beginning, to think otherwise.
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Open Theism concurs that God knows the past and present exhaustively. Ps. 139 is proximal vs remote knowledge i.e. it is not talking about God knowing us trillions of years before we even existed or did anything. It is talking about God's present knowledge that is readily available to an omnipresent being who can 'read' our minds and observe our every move. He knows the hairs on our head, but there is no reason to think this was an object of knowledge from eternity past.
 
G

godrulz

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Freak said:
Paul told the Ephesians that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (see Ephesians 1:3-4). The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.
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This is about corporate vs individual election. He predestined that all those who believe would become part of the Body of Christ, the elect. You are wrongly assuming that God specified which individuals would be part of this. If he chose some to eternal life, this would mean he chose some to be damned (He does not save some whom He could save). TULIP tries to justify double predestination, but this is contrary to God's love and holiness.

He chose the Body of Christ to be His people. Individuals make up the Body, but it does not mean He chose them before they existed or made choices on their own. If you press your ideas, you end up with determinism. I think you reject this, so watch your assumptions lest you end up with wrong conclusions.
 
Agape4Robin

Agape4Robin

Member
godrulz said:
Open Theism concurs that God knows the past and present exhaustively. Ps. 139 is proximal vs remote knowledge i.e. it is not talking about God knowing us trillions of years before we even existed or did anything. It is talking about God's present knowledge that is readily available to an omnipresent being who can 'read' our minds and observe our every move. He knows the hairs on our head, but there is no reason to think this was an object of knowledge from eternity past.
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Why not?
 
G

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Freak said:
Individuals make up the Body of Christ. The Lord could not have done this if he was under the constraint of waiting and watching to see who would decide to choose him.

Perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this:

Was not the Lord most surely aware of every circumstance in the life of the apostle Paul when he sent an holy angel to tell his apostle that not one person's life on board the ship would be lost? (Acts 27:21-25). How could God have his messenger say such a thing if he did not know all that would take place?

Did he not also know that Paul would do the responsible thing and tell the soldiers that if the sailors did not stay with the ship, they could not be saved? Surely, the Lord knew that the soldiers would make the right decision. The Lord was not waiting to find out what they would do. Though there are passages that indicate that the Lord tests us, and "awaits" our obedience, these are certainly anthropomorphic. There are far too many affirmations in Scripture that God knows all things, from the beginning, to think otherwise.
Click to expand...

The God of nature can control the circumstances to ensure their safety. This does not preclude them from jumping overboard and being lost. He knew the hearts of the fearful, and that they would listen to the warning. This is all proximal knowledge and cannot be used as a proof text for exhaustive foreknowledge of every choice from eternity past.

God also warned Paul that he would be in danger if he went to Jerusalem (?). Paul accepted the warning, but went anyway. He had choice to obey or disobey the voice of God. He was prepared to die for the Gospel or trust God to protect him.
 
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