Did Jesus and God Make a Deal with the Devil?

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john w

john w

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Perhaps you misunderstood or I have not made myself clear.

I am particular in distinguishing between writer and author when it comes to Scripture. All Scripture is superintended by God the Holy Spirit. In fact, I am quite the dictation theorist when it comes to this. The author of Scripture is God. The writer of Scripture, is the one whose name is attached to that section, whether known or unknown. You will not find me claiming Paul is the author, of say, Romans. He is the superintended writer of Romans. God is the author.

The Holy Spirit supernaturally gave the words to the men. The words were such that they would have been understood according to the penman's cultural background, learning, etc., but the words themselves were given or communicated by the Holy Spirit. This can go under the names of "dictation" or "suggestion," but more properly "immediate inspiration." It is often erroneously called the mechanical theory by its detractors.

And to short-circuit the objector, this dictation view is nothing like the Islamic view of dictation. Islamic dictation is external, static, and unrelated to history, whereas Christian dictation is internal, dynamic, and historically progressive: holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. According to the old view of these matters all the words are immediately given by God, whereas the sad new view posits the medium of the writers' psychological, social, intellectual, religious and emotional state and allows for degrees of inspiration. Nonsense.

AMR
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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Perhaps you misunderstood or I have not made myself clear.
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No, these are your words, that even a 6 year old can understand:


Ask Mr. Religion said:
I have no doubt that the inspired writer of Ecc. 1:9 had you in mind.
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No scripture says that the "writer"(s)/men/women, are "inspired."

All scripture is given by inspiration.

Why did you make that up? Rhetorical q-you did not study, survey the scriptures, re. this issue.

2 Peter 1:2-21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake(past tense-my note) as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Details... It does not say "For the scripture came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."


That is, the Holy Ghost "moved" some men, and they spake, and the result was prophecy. These are the "original spoken words." They are life, they are spirit, per John 6 KJV. But 2 Peter 1 KJV is not talking about how the scripture came-it is referencing/discussing how the spoken prophecy came. 2 Peter 1 KJV talks NADA about the scriptures. No "original written" words are in view in the context of 2 Pet 1 KJV.
 
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john w said:
No scripture says that the "writer"(s)/men/women, are "inspired."

All scripture is given by inspiration.
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Tomato. Tomaato.

Parse my grammar as you are so inclined. My point stands.

All Scripture is written by the superintendence of the Holy Spirit of the writers, you know, the one's so inspired by the Holy Spirit, hence the inspired writers.

AMR
 
john w

john w

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Tomato. Tomaato.

Parse my grammar as you are so inclined. My point stands.

All Scripture is written by the superintendence of the Holy Spirit of the writers, you know, the one's so inspired by the Holy Spirit, hence the inspired writers.

AMR
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Wrong. Pay attention...Details... It does not say "For the scripture came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."



That is, the Holy Ghost "moved" some men, and they spake, and the result was prophecy. These are the "original spoken words." They are life, they are spirit, per John 6 KJV. But 2 Peter 1 KJV is not talking about how the scripture came-it is referencing/discussing how the spoken prophecy came. 2 Peter 1 KJV talks NADA about the scriptures. No "original written" words are in view in the context of 2 Pet 1 KJV.


Romans 16 KJV

22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.


No scripture asserts that Tertius was "inspired."

Again, many times the "holy men of God" who spoke, did not write it down themselves-some one else did it...To wit:.

Jeremiah 36 KJV
Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.


Scripture-copies..........
 
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1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Ask Mr. Religion said:
I have no time for these oddities.
But thanks for stopping by.
Go in peace.

AMR
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It's his way of altering things to assert that the saying of being built on the Apostles and prophets does not mean the prophets of old but instead those who were prophesying after the DBR.

IOW, MAD hybrid speculation.

Danoh does have his usefulness. ;)
 
Zeke

Zeke

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Robert Pate said:
God hates sin and evil because of what it does to us. This is why he sent Jesus into the world to atone for it and abolish it. In the world to come there will not be any sin or evil.
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He judges no man they are already under self judgement, dead/asleep to their own Divine nature. We can see the attitude of the Father in us!(call no man Father) in the prodigal story where the son was rattling of his failings and the Father was just glad he returned, the law of reaping caused the awakening Luke 15:17 but all the guilt and judgement was by the son on himself through the principle of the law reaping what is sown, The only way to reach the rest and peace is be ye perfect like the Father is to stop judging through good and evil/take no thought, when all three (two brothers and Father) become reconciled the new man starts to merge into one, IS RA EL Romans 9-11 is about bringing those three outward die-visions into one new creation, yet it stays hidden behind the cloak of history that was parabolic seeing none of the outward characters are in Christ, Galatians 3:28, Romans 11:33 not on the outside you wont.

Theology pays no mind to that statement, they go right ahead applying conditional set of rules/creeds one must partake/join in to know/learn the truth is conveniently ignoring the foolish things of God Matt 11:25 produces the most awakenings compared to the letter readers faith in dead men who gave life to symbols John 5:39-40.

Matt 11:11=AMR thinks he has immunity from the absurdity in his own creed but the spiritual law exposes it's limiting dogma, lapping from the observational well its drawn from Matt 11:3, in denial that the spiritual kingdom is within and comes not with observation, something we all do through our traditions of men upbringings, that gets you stuck in the outward/reflections yielding vanities fruits of condemnation/hell for others perceived as being lost/unworthy, when the parable of the lost brother is part of the same Family/body, Worshiping theology just keeps you a slave to its religious systems Galatians 4:1,24, which is why I harp on scripture being symbolic, the historic interpretation pushes responsibility off on an outward kingdom and god that is rudimentary teaching to be left behind once you are awake to where the spiritual kingdom of God really is, the letter is no longer judged through its outward appearance, the Spiritual creed/law is wrote in the temple made without hands in silence, The one made with hands through observation its torn down from breaking the law of reaping and sowing in ignorance, looks good for awhile and took a lot of years to build just to have it demolished, its re-raised by our divine will/Father, no thy self know thy enemy an ancient saying worth pondering. Luke 17:20-21 being the place the story is reconciled in us by learning to not bring the reaper on our self by what we sow, grace/good/love fulfills the law not only in us but how we see this world run by good and evil that must balance each other out until neither is judged making the outward view obsolete that had no power to free you, it only keeps you in bondage when we use it.
 
R

Robert Pate

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Robert,

How can anyone give your views any serious consideration in view of your terribly low opinion of Scripture:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...or-Predestination/page3&p=4402162#post4402162

As I have made clear in this yet another redundant thread you have created, you have no interest in actually directly interacting with the responses you receive unless they are just agreeing with your odd views, not the least of which is what you think predestination means:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Christianity&p=5110002&viewfull=1#post5110002

Again, I note to the lurkers the plain fact that Robert has been engaged on this matter time and again, yet he continues to claim no "smart Calvinists" have been able to answer him. The fact of the matter is that Robert is unwilling to consider the answers he has been given, digest them, and provide substantive responses to the same. A "response" in Robert's mind, is to just dismiss all responses, rejoinders, surrejoinders, etc., then move along with liberally seasoned rhetoric in the hope no one will notice what he is really all about.

This is why something like the following would be nice to see:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-s-Religion&p=5132291&viewfull=1#post5132291

AMR
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You are not able to comprehend the Gospel. It appears that your mind has been poisoned by Calvinism. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Making all religions worthless. No one needs to be predestinated if Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. There are several scriptures that tell us that God is no respecter of persons. The reason for that is because all men are sinners. God is not the minister of sin. God does not predestinate sinners to salvation. If you want to be saved you will have to be justified by Jesus Christ. This means that you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion said:
A "response" in Robert's mind, is to just dismiss all responses, rejoinders, surrejoinders, etc., then move along with liberally seasoned rhetoric in the hope no one will notice what he is really all about.
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Robert Pate said:
You are not able to comprehend the Gospel. It appears that your mind has been poisoned by Calvinism. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Making all religions worthless. No one needs to be predestinated if Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. There are several scriptures that tell us that God is no respecter of persons. The reason for that is because all men are sinners. God is not the minister of sin. God does not predestinate sinners to salvation. If you want to be saved you will have to be justified by Jesus Christ. This means that you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.
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Q.E.D.

AMR
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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Robert Pate said:
Everyone that was saved in the New Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel. This is why Paul wrote, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.
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Indeed, Robert. Sadly, however, you ignore the full counsel of the teachings of Scripture when you appeal to a verse outside the full analogy of the faith found in Holy Writ.

Those that truly heard the Good News were given ears to hear...and irrevocably believe. All that hear do not believe. Hearing the Good News is more than just sound waves being processed by the ear canal and brain circuitry. Those to whom God has granted a degree of spiritual perception will hear Him as He speaks through His Word.

AMR
 
R

Robert Pate

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Indeed, Robert. Sadly, however, you ignore the full counsel of the teachings of Scripture when you appeal to a verse outside the full analogy of the faith found in Holy Writ.

Those that truly heard the Good News were given ears to hear...and irrevocably believe. All that hear do not believe. Hearing the Good News is more than just sound waves being processed by the ear canal and brain circuitry. Those to whom God has granted a degree of spiritual perception will hear Him as He speaks through His Word.

AMR
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To say that God has not given everyone the ability to hear and believe the Gospel is to say that God is unjust. It is not humanly possible to trust in a God that predestinates people to hell before they are born. Your Calvinist religion makes God out to be an unmerciful, unrighteous, unjust, tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

There is a serious problem with believing what you do about God. All down through the Old Testament people had faith in God (see Hebrews chapter 11) They believed God. They believed that he was kind, merciful and just. They had faith that God would provide them a savior, Romans 4:3. This faith in God was counted for righteousness. Just like our faith in Christ counts for righteousness. In the judgment you will perish because of your lack of faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. Remember, this Christian tried to warn you.
 
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Robert Pate said:
To say that God has not given everyone the ability to hear and believe the Gospel is to say that God is unjust.
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Robert,

This sort of humanistic sentiment ignores the plain teachings of Scripture. The first man, Adam, possessed what you erroneously claim we all now possess. Adam fell from his original, yet mutable state, and now all in Adam possess no moral ability to do what they ought to do.

Fortunately, God had a plan in place for the corruption Adam brought upon mankind and creation. God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number, yet not to all, else all would be saved. Justice demands we all should be condemned for the sin of our Federal Head, Adam.

God could have simply wiped out Adam and Eve and that would have been the end of that. And, it would be exemplary of justice. For justice is getting what you deserve, Robert. Mercy is getting what you do not. If all may demand and receive mercy, it no longer is mercy, but mere obligation (Romans 9:15) and makes God a debtor. May it never be.

All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. All who call, Robert. Yet, not all call upon the name of the Lord. Now that plainly means no matter one's views of the atonement, that the active and passive obedience of Our Lord was not for each and every person, else each and every person would be saved. For how could such a sacrifice by the God-man not be effective in propitiating the wrath of God for sin? The sacrifice of Our Lord was not a potential sacrifice, and actual one, one that delivered actual results, just as did the sacrificial types foreshadowing the coming of Our Lord in the Old Testament.

Your approach, Robert, is to make distinctions between some meritorious behavior by the creature. In your view, the fact that you believe and your neighbor does not necessarily means there was something special about you. This is a claim to merit over that of your neighbor, a merit I do not find in Scripture.

Now you may disavow any claim to being special over your neighbor, and will spend plenty of time trying to escape the conclusion, which, when you are done, will result in something mysterious, e.g., "I do not know why I chose to believe, I just did so."

I have what I think is a proper answer to that "mystery" given Scripture's teachings. God first acted on your behalf for reasons known only to Him, not because of any foreseen merit on your part. Which is to say, you believed because God quickened you out of your dire moral state in Adam. At that instant you possessed ears to hear and will not not hear. God acted firstly here, Robert. That's monergism. Once so quickened (born anew), you believed that which you heard. That's synergism.

Your view robs God of His right to rule as He sees fit, to dispense mercy upon whom He will, and leave the rest in their dire state of condemnation in Adam. I prefer to hold to the very high view of God taught in Scripture, and not seek to define Him in terms of what we finite creatures think of related to fairness.

AMR
 
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R

Robert Pate

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Robert,

This sort of humanistic sentiment ignores the plain teachings of Scripture. The first man, Adam, possessed what you erroneously claim we all now possess. Adam fell from his original, yet mutable state, and now all in Adam possess no moral ability to do what they ought to do. Fortunately, God had a plan in place for the corruption Adam brought upon mankind and creation. God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number, yet not to all, else all would be saved. Justice demands we all should be condemned for the sin of our Federal Head, Adam. God could have simply wiped out Adam and Eve and that would have been the end of that. And, it would be exemplary of justice. For justice is getting what you deserve, Robert. Mercy is getting what you do not. If all may demand and receive mercy, it no longer is mercy, but mere obligation (Romans 9:15) and makes God a debtor. May it never be.

All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. All who call, Robert. Yet, not all call upon the name of the Lord. Now that plainly means that no matter one's views of the atonement, that the active and passive obedience of Our Lord was not for each and every person, else each and every person would be saved. For how could such a sacrifice by the God-man not be effective in propitiating the wrath of God for sin? The sacrifice was not a potential sacrifice, and actual one, one that delivered actual results, just as the sacrificial types foreshadowing the coming of Our Lord in the Old Testament.

Your approach is to make distinctions between some meritorious behavior by the creature. In your view, the fact that you believe and your neighbor does not necessarily means there was something special about you. This is a claim to merit over that of your neighbor, a merit I do not find in Scripture. Now you may disavow any claim to being special, spend plenty of time trying to escape the conclusion, which, when you are done, will result in something mysterious, e.g., "I do not know why I chose to believe, I just did so."

I have what I think is a proper answer to that "mystery" given Scripture's teachings. You believed because God quickened you from your dire moral state in Adam. At that instant you possessed ears to hear and will not not hear. God acted firstly here, Robert. Monergism. Once so quickened, you believed that which you heard. Synergism.

Your view robs God of His right to rule as He sees fit, to dispense mercy upon whom He will, and leave the rest in their dire state of condemnation in Adam. I prefer to hold to a very high view of God, and not seek to define Him in humanistic terms of fairness.

AMR
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If God had not provided salvation for all humanity he would not be just. This means that your Calvinist God is unjust. Thankfully, "Jesus tasted death for everyone" Hebrews 2:9 and in doing so made salvation available to everyone.

The Calvinist teaching that men are spiritually dead and cannot hear the Gospel is ridiculous and is not scriptural.

Even those that had participated in the crucifixion of Christ heard Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:23, Acts 2:36. Those that heard and believed Peter's Gospel were 8,000, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4. Which confirmed what Paul wrote, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ. God does not just zapp people with the Holy Spirit, you must hear and believe the Gospel. No one will enter heaven that does not hear and believe the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is only given to those that hear the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

You Calvinist never teach the about the work of the Holy Spirit, the reason being is because you are not indwelt with him.
 
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