ECT Yet Future?

Right Divider said:

So you think that "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood" has already happened?

No, it has not.

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Ok, so Peter quotes Joel and it's clear the first 2 verses have taken place and the last but your saying the middle 2 have not?
Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17
‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;

18
Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.

19
‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

20
‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Right Divider said:

Yes, but that is not what Joel is talking about.

The deliverance that Joel is talking about is related to the great tribulation, which has not yet happened.

The time of Jacob's trouble.... yet future.

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Here is my problem. If it's not what Joel was talking about, then why did Peter say "15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

I'm sorry but you say it's not and Peter says it is, I'm going with Peter.

I do appreciate you working with me again.

turbosixx said:

It's not my definition, I got it from Paul.

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Paul never defines anyone but Israel as Israel.

turbosixx said:

So it doesn't mean eternal life here?

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Certainly not singularly.

turbosixx said:

Gal. 3:16-18

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Once again, which promise does this refer to?

turbosixx said:

If they are believing, then they are no longer a Jew.
Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

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Indeed, in the BUT NOW as Paul frequently refers to, there is not even male and female. Were there male and female in Israel?

turbosixx said:

The way I understand it, physical Israel was just a shadow of the true Israel just as the temple, high priest and so forth. Paul says were have been circumcised and are Abrahams descendants. How can you get more Jewish than that?

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Note that Ishmael is a physical descendant of Abraham and yet he is not an Israelite.

During the dispensation of the grace of God, God is NOT making the distinctions that He made before. When this dispensation ends, Israel will be restored and all of the prophecies about them will be fulfilled in their entirety.

turbosixx said:

Ok, I think I might be getting close to what you mean by other salvation.

I see this passage as spiritual and not physical. Jesus has been raised up and given all authority in heaven and on earth. V77, give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins. Done. If we view the others as spiritual, it makes sense.

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That is called not believing the Word of God.

turbosixx said:

Ok, so Peter quotes Joel and it's clear the first 2 verses have taken place and the last but your saying the middle 2 have not?
Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17
‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;

18
Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.

19
‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

20
‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

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You think that 21 is fulfilled, it is not. You assume so many things based on your theory and not on the Bible.

The deliverance of verse 21 comes when the great tribulation occurs. It has NOT come yet.

turbosixx said:

Here is my problem. If it's not what Joel was talking about, then why did Peter say "15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

I'm sorry but you say it's not and Peter says it is, I'm going with Peter.

I do appreciate you working with me again.

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Are we still in the "last days"?

You're welcome. Thanks for staying civil.

Jerry Shugart said:

By the New Testament, the Last Will and Testament of the Lord Jesus. It is in that Testament whereby we learn the "good news" (gospel) Of Christ, how that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

Now please address my remarks about what is revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but testament and covenant are the same Greek word. As we see here the old covenant is referred to as testament.
Heb. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Right Divider said:

Paul never defines anyone but Israel as Israel.


Certainly not singularly.


Once again, which promise does this refer to?


Indeed, in the BUT NOW as Paul frequently refers to, there is not even male and female. Were there male and female in Israel?


Note that Ishmael is a physical descendant of Abraham and yet he is not an Israelite.

During the dispensation of the grace of God, God is NOT making the distinctions that He made before. When this dispensation ends, Israel will be restored and all of the prophecies about them will be fulfilled in their entirety.

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I'm trying to see it your way. Correct me where I'm wrong. Israel is no longer under the old law but under a dispensation of grace and when Jesus comes again he will restore them.

Right Divider said:

That is called not believing the Word of God.

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I believe the word of God but understanding it is the key.

turbosixx said:

I'm trying to see it your way. Correct me where I'm wrong. Israel is no longer under the old law but under a dispensation of grace and when Jesus comes again he will restore them.

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Per Romans 11, Israel has been cast away (but only temporarily). So them and their law are currently not operational.

God is currently dispensing His grace to all that will receive it and this is completely apart from Israel.

turbosixx said:

If that doesn't cover it, could you please give me a little more direction in what specifically you're referring to.

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According to Jeremiah 31:31-34 all those who will belong to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah will be the "physical" descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And all of them will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven.

Since that has never happened in the past then it will be fulfilled at sometime in the future. Please address these specific things.

turbosixx said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but testament and covenant are the same Greek word. As we see here the old covenant is referred to as testament.

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That is correct. But one of the meanings of that word is "covenant" and another meaning is "testament." Those words do not mean the same thing.

Right Divider said:

You think that 21 is fulfilled, it is not. You assume so many things based on your theory and not on the Bible.

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I do my very best to base my understanding on scripture. No, I'm not even close to perfect. I think about Paul and how he was persecuting the church believing he was right.

Right Divider said:

The deliverance of verse 21 comes when the great tribulation occurs. It has NOT come yet.

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Paul quotes this same prophecy in Romans 10. Looking at the context, he's talking about the gospel. Rom. 10:9-15.

Right Divider said:

Are we still in the "last days"?

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I believe so.
Heb. 1:1-2

Right Divider said:

Per Romans 11, Israel has been cast away (but only temporarily). So them and their law are currently not operational.

God is currently dispensing His grace to all that will receive it and this is completely apart from Israel.

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There is no such restoration coming. that is what Hebrews is all about. D'ism so stung by this they fight like maniacs for Judah vs Israel in one line that they think keeps the old covenant going. Our church just read Hebrews non stop this morning. It is over and over that there is no going back to the old because it was merely an illustration, a shadow. God has now done the permanent and there is no reverting back and no reason to.

turbosixx said:

I do my very best to base my understanding on scripture. No, I'm not even close to perfect. I think about Paul and how he was persecuting the church believing he was right.


Paul quotes this same prophecy in Romans 10. Looking at the context, he's talking about the gospel. Rom. 10:9-15.


I believe so.
Heb. 1:1-2

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The time of enormous upheaval was 66-72. It was the time that took down the stones and beauty of that temple.

Right Divider said:

Per Romans 11, Israel has been cast away (but only temporarily). So them and their law are currently not operational.

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Maybe this is what is confusing me. You say Israel has been cast away, temporarily, but Paul says they haven't and uses himself as an example.
Rom. 11:11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Then in the next verse, he plainly says it.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

I don't even see them being set aside.

Right Divider said:

God is currently dispensing His grace to all that will receive it and this is completely apart from Israel.

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I agree, the only part I struggle with is "completely" apart from Israel based on this.
Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

The Jews were God's household under the old covenant but now in Christ they still are they just now have fellow heirs in the Gentiles.

Jerry Shugart said:

all those who will belong to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah will be the "physical" descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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What is your take on this passage?

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Pulling verses 1-2 out of Romans 11: 1-5 and claiming this is evidence that God did not cast away Old Covenant Israel is misleading. The entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 is about the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, a small number, who became the elect by grace, and began the New Covenant. Paul begins talking about the remnant of Old Covenant Israel in verse 2, when he mentions Elijah, referring to I Kings 19: 14, where Elijah, running from the forces of Jezebel, said to God "..and I, even I only am left..." But in I Kings 19: 18 God told Elijah that he had seven thousand in Israel who have not bowed to Baal, that is, a remnant..

In Romans 11: 17-20 those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off because of unbelief. They, the multitude, were cast away, but the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5 were not cast away. If the remnant was not cast away, then those of Old Covenant Israel who were cast away have to be the multitude. This is like saying two plus two is four, not some other number. But dispensationalism - or Christian Zionism - does not talk about a remnant and a multitude of Old Covenant Israel. It has its own postulates or assumptions which in places do not follow scripture. As Lewis S, Sperry admitted, dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

turbosixx said:

What is your take on this passage?

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Again, according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 all those who will belong to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah will be the "physical" descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And all of them will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven.

Since that has never happened in the past then it will be fulfilled at sometime in the future. Please address these specific things.

Jerry Shugart said:

Again, according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 all those who will belong to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah will be the "physical" descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And all of them will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven.

Since that has never happened in the past then it will be fulfilled at sometime in the future. Please address these specific things.

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It already has been addressed: the Canaanite woman of Tyre in Matthew 15 was eventually grafted in by faith. Do you not hear? CANAANITE. Why do you keep negating, obfuscating, ignoring, and sidelining the Testimony of Messiah? He plainly says he is only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Unless you are willing to change your own mindset, you cannot be his disciple; for his words are never going to pass away, and they have never been rescinded, explained away, or reinterpreted, and they never will be; and they have never been interrupted or "put on pause" to accommodate fanciful ideas of a separate dispensation which you have carved out of the scripture for yourself, and they never will be: not for you, nor for anyone else, because Messiah will not be changing his mindset to accommodate your faulty paradigm. Again, your hyper dispensationalism only serves to cut your own self off from the Root. The words of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts are written to all his disciples as proven even by his own statements, such as in the midst of the prayer in John 17, in the statement made in John 17:20. Your carving up of the scripture may appear good for yourself because it allows you to eliminate those portions which you do not wish to apply to yourself; but in the end it only creates mass confusion. You are playing the same old game of Marcion with the only real difference being that your scissors are a pair of imaginary theological scissors which allow you to leave statements intact while at the same time rejecting those statements as applying to yourself. Paul teaches the same Gospel found in the Testimony of Messiah, in the Gospel accounts, and even states in multiple places that he teaches the commandments of the Master; and those commandments and teachings are only found in the Gospel accounts. One of those commandment statements is that he was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Anyone who climbs up into the sheepfold by some other way is a thief, a robber, and a wolf.

turbosixx said:

I do my very best to base my understanding on scripture. No, I'm not even close to perfect. I think about Paul and how he was persecuting the church believing he was right.

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He persecuted the church in Jerusalem, indeed.

turbosixx said:

Paul quotes this same prophecy in Romans 10. Looking at the context, he's talking about the gospel. Rom. 10:9-15.

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Paul quotes a lot of scripture using a different context that the original. Here is a good example:

turbosixx said:

I believe so.
Heb. 1:1-2

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The "last days" is all about prophecy for Israel (i.e., the Hebrews).

Interplanner said:

There is no such restoration coming. that is what Hebrews is all about. D'ism so stung by this they fight like maniacs for Judah vs Israel in one line that they think keeps the old covenant going. Our church just read Hebrews non stop this morning. It is over and over that there is no going back to the old because it was merely an illustration, a shadow. God has now done the permanent and there is no reverting back and no reason to.

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:mock: Cancellationist Commentarianism.

daqq said:

It already has been addressed: the Canaanite woman of Tyre in Matthew 15 was eventually grafted in by faith. Do you not hear? CANAANITE. Why do you keep negating, obfuscating, ignoring, and sidelining the Testimony of Messiah?

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Nothing which you said there changes the plain meaning of what is revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Until you accept what is revealed there you will never come to the knowledge of the truth concerning the subject of this thread.