Why Calvinist, Catholics, Others, Do NOT Have Saving Faith
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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God's Truth
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The Church is the body of Christ and the saved are put in Christ and part of his body.
The fact that Catholic priests are called 'father' and Jesus says do not call your brother in Christ 'father'. The fact that we are told not make statues and bow to them and the Catholics do that. The fact that the bronze snake that Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it, and Catholics burn incense to the cross and statues. The fact that we are told that Jesus is the mediator, but the Catholics say Mary is one too, and other such things.
See what I have written in #2. There are things too like a curtain or door veiling the priest and people confessing sins to him. About forbidding people to marry. Donating money for prayers and candle lighting.
They had the Old Testament. The Old Testament is prophecies of Jesus and the New Testament is prophecies revealed. They also had the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and probably other books we did not have, and probably many more letters, and they had the apostles themselves preaching to them in person.
Different people and denominations gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning. They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.
The believers from the beginning used these books and letters from the start. That is what determined these books as scripture.
God's Truth
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Ok. Cool!
I will try to make that thread today, or for sure within the next couple of days.
I was just wondering, what does your screen name mean? It is very unique.
God's Truth
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The Bible doesn't tell us exactly when they were written. We cannot know for sure. We know that the first generation of Christians had books and letters, for that is to whom the letters were written. They also had the Old Testament, and the Apostles themselves to teach them, and those approved to teach, some also had the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy.
That is true. It could happen. I hope that it will not. It usually goes down for me when I get told I am not saved. I do not tell people they are not saved, unless they say it to me, for they have so judged themselves.
I will let you know when I start the thread so that you do not have to keep checking the list.
God's Truth
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There is no reason why you should believe the kiss was on the feet! There is no reason since Peter told Cornelius to get up. How is it normal to greet each other with a kiss on the feet?
Doing that is a sign of worship. Don't you think that Cornelius KNEW PETER WAS NOT GOD?
I do not make things up. I did not say what you say I said. The Catholics prostrate themselves on the ground and even kiss their popes feet. Their pope should say what Peter said; he should tell them not to do that.
John did not think the angel was God, and Cornelius did not think Peter was God. So your argument does not hold up.
It is simple, the people who were told to get up were not to do that, it was a form used for worship. Catholics have no excuse to do that to their pope.
jsanford108
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You made many points. Obviously, I disagree with you. I have arguments against your points, but if it is okay, may I save them for the thread you start? (I am assuming that the very points you used above, will come into play there. I could address them individually, in such a scenario) To address them here may prove to be a very long post. But, whichever you prefer, I will gladly accept.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Brother Ducky
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If Jesus is the Savior of all men, then by definition, all men are saved.
If no men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of none.
If some men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of some.
God's Truth
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Jesus is the Savior of all men, but they must believe and obey to enter that grace.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
God's Truth
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Thank you, jsanford108. I will start the new thread for sure in a couple of days. I won't be on much tomorrow, I have many things I must do.
Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, Hebrews 2:9.
But not all men want to be saved.
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching, Heb 2:9 doesn't say Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, that's a lie. You teach that even after Christ tasted death for a person, they are still lost !
You can't seem to read.
"That he (Jesus) by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.
Salvation has been provided for everyone, but nothing is yours until it is received, John 1:12.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes you did lie ! Now you wont repent of the lie !
Bard_the_Bowman
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Is the Bible the only source of information that we have for deciding when the books of the New Testament were written?
I don't think so. Church historians and Scripture scholars, though not infallible, can help us to learn those things.
With all due respect, saying that the Bible doesn't tell us when they were written is avoiding the question.
Well, we can agree to be charitable and resist the temptation to lose civility with each other.
Peace.
Bard_the_Bowman
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Well, you wouldn't tell me the dates of the writings of the books of the New Testament because you said the Bible doesn't tell us.
To be consistent with your use of the Bible, can you tell me where the Bible says that a kiss on the feet is a sign of worship?
No. Not necessarily. Cornelius was visited by angels in a vision and was afraid.
Tell me, why did the angels who Lot bowed to NOT tell him to get up and quit the false worshipping? Why did they let him worship them? Didn't those angels know that bowing to someone other than God was forbidden?
The only way that story makes sense is if bowing as a sign of respect is ok. And the angels knew that.
I disagree. Unless you can show me in the Bible somewhere where a "worshipping kiss" is forbidden.
If you can't. Then you made that up.
I am sure that you know your Bible better than I do but I just don't remember ever reading about a "worshipping kiss".
Where is that at again?
Yes. But very rarely over a 2000 year history. It is not the norm and was mostly reserved for cardinals and bishops. And mostly a long time ago.
I agree....if worship is occurring. But nobody believes the Pope to be God, so their is no worship involved. So there is no problem.
How do you know that? Does the Bible say that?
If you want to be consistent in your use of the Bible, you will have to show me where the Bible says that John and Cornelius did not think they were gods.
Unless you can show me where the Bible says that....you are making that up. That is just your interpretation.
Actually, I think it is holding up fine because you are making claims that cannot be found in the Bible.
I could be wrong. But the way to show me is to show me where the Bible says what you are saying.
The Bible is filled with examples of people bowing and it shows that it was also a form used to show respect....and not worship.
I've already shown you Lot and Jacob with Esau. If I have time I will find some more. There are quite a few.
Peace.
Brother Ducky
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So he is in fact the savior of some and not all.
Bard_the_Bowman
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Amen. Hey GT, as jsanford 108 said, it would be better to address your list of concerns one at a time.
But since this at least the second time you have made quite a long "shotgun pellet" list, I am going to briefly give you a "shotgun pellet" response to some of it.
The Bible records approximately 150 times in the New Testament that somebody does that including Zecheriah, Stephen, Paul, Mary....and yes, even Jesus Himself. They were not all confused. (Jesus confused?)
Also, the Bible says the same thing about being called "teacher". Do you have a issue with that as well?
Did you miss the fact that God commanded people to make statues several times. Was He confused?
Did you forget the fact that God Himself commanded Moses to make that bronze snake? He commanded it.
Did you forget about Malachi 1:11: "For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts."
Does your Church use incense?
If yes, great!
If not, why not?
You said that you haven't failed to answer my questions. But I just remembered that you haven't answered this one that I asked earlier:
How is one person suffering for the sake of another (like Paul did) and how is one person praying for another (like Paul repeatedly stated), and how is sharing the Gospel with someone,.....how are those NOT mediating?
John 20:23: "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
You are most certainly confused. Nobody but nobody is forbidden to marry. Anyone can get married if they want to.
Some people willing choose to NOT get married and consecrate their lives to God instead.
But this is their own free choice and they know that before they make their decision.
Paul supports people making that choice and living as he did...unmarried. We can read about it in 1st Corinthinans 7.
Almsgiving is biblical.
Yup. But in an earlier post you claimed that they had a New Testament.
They didn't.
Like starting when?
So how about 43 A.D. just for an example. What books and letters were they using then?
Peace.
Bard_the_Bowman
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Uggh. I hate my screen name, just couldn't think of a good one at the time. Bard was a character in J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit". I love those books and movies!
My preferred screen name is "Bestil Andno" but I don't know if it is possible to change it.
Eh.
Hey, here is a little something to think about that I have stolen from Patrick Madrid:
Let's say we found a note from 150 years ago and it said: "I never said you stole the money."
Could we read it today, and know what that means? Maybe, it looks like it says somebody never said somebody else stole some money.
But there are at least 5 different valid interpretations of those 7 words depending on where the emphasis is placed:
1. I never said you stole the money. (My wife said it, though.)
2. I never said you stole the money. (I thought it, though.)
3. I never said you stole the money. (I said that your son did.)
4. I never said you stole the money. (I said you borrowed it.)
5. I never said you stole the money. (I said you stole the horse.)
5 different valid interpretations of 7 words.
Which do you think is more likely to be misinterpreted...those 7 words or the Bible which was written over the course of thousands of years, by numerous different authors, in several different languages, and in several different genres?
I know, I know...the Holy Spirit can help us to understand the Bible. But the Bible itself even warns us about misunderstanding it and twisting unto our own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)
Did Jesus leave us in that state? Without being able to be sure of what we are reading?
Just something to think about.
Peace.
God does not impose salvation on anyone. If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask him to save you, Romans 10:13.
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