ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
WRONG ! Amazingly that is directly opposite of what scripture teaches. This verse PROVES that men are born spiritually dead.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let's back up a few verses so we can see exactly how the offense of one brought judgment to all men to condemnation:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law"
(Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.

NOW TURNAROUND IS FAIR PLAY

Now it is your turn to address the death spoken here in "bold," a death which you said refers to spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Ro.5:12).​

According to Paul "all men" die spiritually because "all men" have sinned. That means that before sinning "all men" were spiritually alive. After all, it is impossible for anyone to die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually.

The only way that "all men" could have been spiritually alive is by emerging from the womb spiritually alive. Or can you explain another way whereby "all men" are spiritually alive?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The 'threatened' is merely alienating someone I care about in you. Yes, I feel 'threatened' by the loss of a friend. Losing your friendship and respect is threatening. Nothing else, just that.

Lon, it's extremely difficult for me to try and carry on a conversation with someone as sensitive as you seem to be. I may come across as "mean", too frank, etc., but there is absolutely NOTHING personal in what I'm saying to you. Even when I point out what I see as spiritual pride, I do so in the hopes you'll recognize there just may be some truth there that you should be addressing. You're defending a "doctrine", and spiritual pride comes with the territory.

My heart goes out to you and what you went through in your childhood, but I'm inclined to encourage people to "buck up", get over it, and move on. When you dwell on possibly "losing a friend", I want to smack you upside the head, and drag you over to the next thread so we can get on with the discussion.

I never saw where you addressed my comments about "there are none righteous". Did you? I showed you from the same psalm where there were some righteous. That's the kind of thing that really irritates me. When anyone, not just you, pushes aside the point I brought up by tossing out fifteen more verses, that only leaves me an overwhelming task. They each can be addressed, but it's not worth it if the first is not addressed. Actually addressed. This may seem like a small thing compared to those large doctrinal teachings, but it's where the rubber meets the road for me.

Now, buck up, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, stop bringing up an estrangement that only exists in your own mind. Stop claiming I believe like someone else because I see the truth in ONE point they made.

I have no problem with you. It's the doctrine of depravity I hate. It's the doctrine of original sin I hate. It's the misuse of scripture when verses are ripped out of their context to support a THEORY, that I hate. I hate them because they slander our Holy and Righteous God. They attack the very character of our Lord and God.
 

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;

NOW TURNAROUND IS FAIR PLAY

Now it is your turn to address the death spoken here in "bold," a death which you said refers to spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Ro.5:12).​

According to Paul "all men" die spiritually because "all men" have sinned. That means that before sinning "all men" were spiritually alive. After all, it is impossible for anyone to die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually.

This is assumption on your part ! No one had to be alive to die spiritually because everyone was already dead spiritually in Adam as he was the federal head of mankind just as in Jesus who is the federal head of mankind their is life.

The only way that "all men" could have been spiritually alive is by emerging from the womb spiritually alive. Or can you explain another way whereby "all men" are spiritually alive?

100% wrong. The only way anyone becomes spiritually alive is in Christ Jesus through faith.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
This is assumption on your part ! No one had to be alive to die spiritually...

BRILLIANT!

No one has to be alive spiritually in order to die spiritually?

The word "death" means "the end of life." But according to you a person can die spiritually even though he is not alive spiritually.

Do you never tire of embarrassing yourself?
 

dodge

New member
BRILLIANT!

No one has to be alive spiritually in order to die spiritually?

The word "death" means "the end of life." But according to you a person can die spiritually even though he is not alive spiritually.

Do you never tire of embarrassing yourself?

Hello,they cannot die if they are already dead they can only be made alive by Jesus.

Jerry, it makes perfect sense everyone born after Adam EXCEPT for Jesus is born spiritually dead as per scripture. YOUR opinion does not supersede scripture.

I have not bit into the delusion of MAD and I do not pervert the context of scripture to please those who do as those in MAD.

Those who are born of a woman are born DEAD spiritually.

I don't play pervert scripture to make a point.

NO one ever born again has ever been born again unless they were born again by the blood of Jesus.

You try to FORCE what is not in scripture like 2 gospels one for Jews and another for gentiles. It AINT in scripture.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry, it makes perfect sense everyone born after Adam EXCEPT for Jesus is born spiritually dead as per scripture. YOUR opinion does not supersede scripture.

The only way that you can make your ideas work is by asserting that before a person dies spiritually he is not alive spiritually.

You have to play mental gymnastics in order to cling to your discredited ideas and are somehow able to trick your mind into believing that when someone dies spiritually he is not alive spiritually when that happens.
 

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;4984379]The only way that you can make your ideas work is by asserting that before a person dies spiritually he is not alive spiritually.


Well duh ,In Adam all die ( done past tense ) in Christ Jesus all live ( future in whom come to Him in faith.

You have to play mental gymnastics in order to cling to your discredited ideas and are somehow able to trick your mind into believing that when someone dies spiritually he is not alive spiritually when that happens.


Nope, that is your rearranging scripture to make it say what YOU want it to say NOT what it says.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Well duh ,In Adam all die ( done past tense ) in Christ Jesus all live ( future in whom come to Him in faith.

Do you really think that defends your illogical idea that a person who dies spiritually isn't alive spiritually at the time when he dies?

Anybody in their right mind understands that before a person can die he has to first be alive.

Nope, that is your rearranging scripture to make it say what YOU want it to say NOT what it says.

It is you who denies what is said in the Scriptures and you prove it by arguing that no one is alive spiritually at the time when they die spiritually. Not only do you deny the Scriptures but you stand reason on its head.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Lon, it's extremely difficult for me to try and carry on a conversation with someone as sensitive as you seem to be. I may come across as "mean", too frank, etc., but there is absolutely NOTHING personal in what I'm saying to you. Even when I point out what I see as spiritual pride, I do so in the hopes you'll recognize there just may be some truth there that you should be addressing. You're defending a "doctrine", and spiritual pride comes with the territory.

My heart goes out to you and what you went through in your childhood, but I'm inclined to encourage people to "buck up", get over it, and move on. When you dwell on possibly "losing a friend", I want to smack you upside the head, and drag you over to the next thread so we can get on with the discussion.

I never saw where you addressed my comments about "there are none righteous". Did you? I showed you from the same psalm where there were some righteous. That's the kind of thing that really irritates me. When anyone, not just you, pushes aside the point I brought up by tossing out fifteen more verses, that only leaves me an overwhelming task. They each can be addressed, but it's not worth it if the first is not addressed. Actually addressed. This may seem like a small thing compared to those large doctrinal teachings, but it's where the rubber meets the road for me.

Now, buck up, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, stop bringing up an estrangement that only exists in your own mind. Stop claiming I believe like someone else because I see the truth in ONE point they made.

I have no problem with you. It's the doctrine of depravity I hate. It's the doctrine of original sin I hate. It's the misuse of scripture when verses are ripped out of their context to support a THEORY, that I hate. I hate them because they slander our Holy and Righteous God. They attack the very character of our Lord and God.

Note: The bolded hates of GD

My response:

I hate your unbelief.

I hate your disrespect of Lon.

I hate your false teachings.

I hate your hatred and unrepentant opposition to God's Truth.
 
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George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
An unsaved (unregenrate) man is blind and deaf to the gospel and is literally dead in his sins. Ro 5:12KJV
He is totally unable, without the power of the Holy Spirit acting upon him, to ever come to saving knowledge of Christ without God making him alive through Christ. Eph 2:5KJV, John 5:21KJV
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
An unsaved (unregenrate) man is blind and deaf to the gospel and is literally dead in his sins. Ro 5:12KJV
He is totally unable, without the power of the Holy Spirit acting upon him, to ever come to saving knowledge of Christ without God making him alive through Christ. Eph 2:5KJV, John 5:21KJV

There is POWER in the Gospel. It's hearing it that gives us life. According to you there is no Power in the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​
 
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