IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

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God's Truth

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Clete said:
Where's the need for Paul to go to Jerusalem to explain to the Twelve "his gospel" if it was identical to theirs?
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Where do you get that?
Clete said:
Where's the need for Paul's ministry to exist in the first place if "his gospel" was identical to that preached by Jesus and the Twelve?
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Paul says so that the worst of sinners could know too that they can be saved.

1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Clete said:
The fact that the Jerusalem council occurred at all is proof that Paul's gospel was, in fact, distinct from that which had come before, which not only explains why Paul repeatedly calls it "my gospel"
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Paul calls it the gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ, Paul’s gospel, and our gospel.

God gave the Law to Moses, but it is called the Law of Moses because Moses preached it.

Paul is not saying it is his gospel only.


Clete said:
and why he didn't confer with the Twelve and why he received "his gospel" by direct divine revelation
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Paul had to get it after Jesus rose from the dead because Paul was not among the twelve when Jesus walked the earth.

Paul says he is one abnormally born. That does not mean a different gospel. He admits he is an abnormally born apostle.

1 Corinthians 15:and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


Clete said:
and why Paul had to get into Peter's face concerning the gospel and why there was all this contention over the issue of circumcision and etc, etc, etc, etc!
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Paul getting in Peter's face proves they taught the same gospel.
 
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Danoh said:
You are misusing Rom. 9:32.

Because you have failed to understand the end of Rom. 2.

They sought it by the works of the law and not by faith in the sense that they were walking the works of the Law as pleasing men, not from a heart attitude or spirit of pleasing God.

In other words, Pew warmers, so to speak.
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No. The Jews who rejected Jesus did not want to believe that his blood cleaned them once and for all, they wanted to keep doing circumcisions, eat a special diet, do special washings after being unclean, and sacrifice animals.
 
steko

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God's Truth said:
No. The Jews who rejected Jesus did not want to believe that his blood cleaned them once and for all, they wanted to keep doing circumcisions, eat a special diet, do special washings after being unclean, and sacrifice animals.
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Where in Scripture were they told not to do those things?
 
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steko said:
Where in Scripture were they told not to do those things?
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Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You do not know who preached that?

The Jews used to have a lamb sacrificed every day, but Jesus is the lamb and they didn't want to give up their animal sacrifices. They wanted to keep working at cleaning themselves instead of the Lamb of God cleaning them once and for all.
 
steko

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God's Truth said:
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You do not know who preached that?
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Well yeah, I know who said it.

The Jews used to have a lamb sacrificed every day, but Jesus is the lamb and they didn't want to give up their animal sacrifices. They wanted to keep working at cleaning themselves instead of the Lamb of God cleaning them once and for all.
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Act_21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:


Had these believing Jews been commanded to not be zealous of the law?
If so, when did this occur and where and when do we find it in Scripture?
 
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steko said:
Well yeah, I know who said it.
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The sacrifice of animals is about atoning for one's soul.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who atones once and for all.
Jesus is the Lamb of God for the Jews and the Gentiles.

steko said:
Act_21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:


Had these believing Jews been commanded to not be zealous of the law?
If so, when did this occur and where and when do we find it in Scripture?
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While the earthly temple was still standing, the Pharisees and teachers of the law enforced the Law of Moses.

Jesus told the disciples to do what they say, and Jesus also said the earthly temple would be destroyed

Matthew 23:2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 24:1 As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. 2“Do you see all these things? He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be toppled.”


Read in Hebrews, the Jews, how it was explained to them about the new order. The new order where the blood of Christ makes them clean, and how the Most Holy Place is not an earthly temple. It is explained how the earthly was just a copy of the heavenly.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.


The Jews were afraid of being killed.
You can see here that Paul taught the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 14:1 [ In Iconium ] At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.

Paul says here that the Jews are afraid and that is why they still circumcise.

Galatians 6:12
Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

Christ crucified is a stumbling block to the Jews because they did not want to stop sacrificing animals. They did not accept Jesus' blood as making them clean.

Paul says he stopped preaching circumcision.

Galatians 5:11
Now brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
 
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Danoh

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God's Truth said:
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Paul getting in Peter's face proves they taught the same gospel.
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I am not really writing this to you; as addressing you on these issues is pointless....

No, that is not why Paul got in Peter's face.

Rather, he did so because "the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law" applies to both; Peter had agreed to this, but then had momentarily gone against its' bring true "of the Gentiles also..." (Rom. 3:21-31).

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Note...

2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Same justification.

But the gospel of God concerning His Son - in other words - the gospel of Christ...is more than justification.

There is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was Prophesied unto Israel (how that His justification would enable them at last, to KEEP the Law via THEIR PROMISED New Covenant).

And there is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was kept secret since the world began - until Paul - and that he ALONE preached among the Gentiles.

This aspect was NOT Prophesied and is not by Covenant.

In this, another aspect they nevertheless do share is the role of the Spirit in justification.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

And that is referring to Abraham back WHEN he WAS in UN-Circumcision.

It is NOT referring to Abraham LATER - AFTER he was in Circumcision and became Isaac's father, out of whom Jacob sprang (out of whom sprang, in turn, Israel's Twelve Patriarchs, et al).

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
 
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Danoh said:
I am not really writing this to you; as addressing you on these issues is pointless....

No, that is not why Paul got in Peter's face.

Rather, he did so because "the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law" applies to both; Peter had agreed to this, but then had momentarily gone against its' bring true "of the Gentiles also..." (Rom. 3:21-31).

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Note...

2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Same justification.

But the gospel of God concerning His Son - in other words - the gospel of Christ...is more than justification.

There is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was Prophesied unto Israel (how that His justification would enable them at last, to KEEP the Law via THEIR PROMISED New Covenant).

And there is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was kept secret since the world began - until Paul - and that he ALONE preached among the Gentiles.

This aspect was NOT Prophesied and is not by Covenant.

In this, another aspect they nevertheless do share is the role of the Spirit in justification.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

And that is referring to Abraham back WHEN he WAS in UN-Circumcision.

It is NOT referring to Abraham LATER - AFTER he was in Circumcision and became Isaac's father, out of whom Jacob sprang (out of whom sprang, in turn, Israel's Twelve Patriarchs, et al).

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
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The reason Paul opposed Peter is because Peter was acting out of line with the one and only gospel.
 
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Danoh said:
I am not really writing this to you; as addressing you on these issues is pointless....

No, that is not why Paul got in Peter's face.

Rather, he did so because "the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law" applies to both; Peter had agreed to this, but then had momentarily gone against its' bring true "of the Gentiles also..." (Rom. 3:21-31).
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What you say makes no sense. Paul opposed Peter because he acted out of line WITH THE TRUTH. There is only ONE TRUTH, and he is the Way and the Life.

Danoh said:
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Note...

2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Same justification.

But the gospel of God concerning His Son - in other words - the gospel of Christ...is more than justification.

There is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was Prophesied unto Israel (how that His justification would enable them at last, to KEEP the Law via THEIR PROMISED New Covenant).
Click to expand...

Jesus IS THE Sacrificial Lamb of God, he IS the circumcision, he is the external washing and the internal washing, he is the special days, he is the LAW FULFILLED.

There are no more Jew and Gentile, for there is ONE SAVIOR for ALL, and there is one law for all---the NEW LAW, it is the OLD LAW with changes, it is the law of Christ, the law that requires faith.

God says PLAINLY that it is no more of human descent. That means no more of human ancestry!

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent,

Danoh said:
And there is that aspect of the gospel of Christ that was kept secret since the world began - until Paul - and that he ALONE preached among the Gentiles.
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No! NO "not until PAUL", it began when the New Testament came and that started with the FORERUNNER, John the baptizer.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Danoh said:
This aspect was NOT Prophesied and is not by Covenant.
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Only in your imagination it is not. You now are claiming that Paul preached things NOT prophesied!!!

You are also condemning yourself by saying what you believe is NOT by COVENANT!

Paul says PLAINLY that he is the minister of the NEW COVENANT, but you go against Paul and say NOT by Covenant!

Paul says he is the minister of a New Covenant, and then he quotes Jesus many times speaking of the NEW COVENANT!

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

2 Corinthians 2:12
[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,

2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,


Danoh said:
In this, another aspect they nevertheless do share is the role of the Spirit in justification.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

And that is referring to Abraham back WHEN he WAS in UN-Circumcision.
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AGAIN, CIRCUMCISION started with ABRAHAM and circumcision is the sign of ALL the purification/ceremonial works.


Danoh said:
It is NOT referring to Abraham LATER - AFTER he was in Circumcision and became Isaac's father, out of whom Jacob sprang (out of whom sprang, in turn, Israel's Twelve Patriarchs, et al).
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CIRCUMCISION STARTED with Abraham!!! Circumcision then proceeded to MOSES and CIRCUMCISION became the SIGN of ALL the purification/ceremonial works.

Abraham was saved and given the PROMISE because he OBEYED EVERYTHING THAT GOD TOLD HIM TO DO.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws
 
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Abraham was SAVED and given the promise of the coming New Covenant by which Jesus and Paul preached, and that is about no CIRCUMCISION, and that is about no ceremonial works.

The gospel is about being made clean by just believing that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we confess and repent of doing.

Grace is that NO ONE, Jew or Gentile has to clean themselves anymore just to go to a temple to worship God, for grace is that Jesus makes us clean and we become the temple. That is our being reconciled to God, when he lives IN US, and also seats us in heaven with him.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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God's Truth said:
Abraham was SAVED and given the promise of the coming New Covenant by which Jesus and Paul preached, and that is about no CIRCUMCISION, and that is about no ceremonial works.

The gospel is about being made clean by just believing that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we confess and repent of doing.

Grace is that NO ONE, Jew or Gentile has to clean themselves anymore just to go to a temple to worship God, for grace is that Jesus makes us clean and we become the temple. That is our being reconciled to God, when he lives IN US, and also seats us in heaven with him.
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Did you KNOW that you're extremely ignorant and wrong at the same time?
 
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Jesus preached that one and only New Covenant.

When Jesus came to earth, he taught the guidelines and rules for the New Covenant, and then he shed his blood on the cross for the New Covenant. It is a blood Covenant, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Danoh says he is not in a Covenant, yet he preaches to others that we are to come to the cross!

Coming to the cross IS coming to the blood of the NEW COVENANT.

Coming to the New Covenant is about having Jesus wash away the sins you repent of, and our going through his flesh is about our obeying Jesus' teachings.

There is only one way, and it is to the Jews and Gentiles.
 
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Jesus came first for those who ALREADY BELONGED TO GOD.

They were God's, and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus said when he is crucified, then ALL can come to him to be saved, but he came first for those who already belonged to God and waited for the Messiah.
 
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Peter got the understanding and call for that first, and that was before Paul. Peter went to Cornelius' house and those Gentiles were saved JUST LIKE THE JEWS. And they were NOT CIRCUMCISED.

Paul started out just with the Jews, but then was sent far away to the Gentiles, because the Jews wanted to kill him because they thought he was preaching Jesus just to trick them into saying, "I believe in Jesus" so that he could throw them in jail.

There is only one gospel and it is the New Covenant.

The Jews had to keep doing the Old Testament laws because the earthy temple was still standing, and the Pharisees would have them put to death if they did not obey.

That does NOT mean the NEW COVENANT was not preached, for if it were not---why then was Peter and all the apostles prosecuted?!!!
 
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