ECT For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

SimpleMan77 · Nov 4, 2016

Walking in the Spirit is one of the most essential aspects of obeying the Gospel. Paul said in Romans 8:14 that you cannot be a Son of God unless you allow the Spirit to lead you, and that is step by step.
He also said in Romans 8:13 that if we follow the desires of our flesh, we'll die (and he's not referring to physical death).
God's grace, and the work of Calvary (the Gospel) breaks the curse of sin and enables us to deny our fleshly desires and walk in the leading of the Holt Ghost.

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Jerry Shugart · Nov 4, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
He also said in Romans 8:13 that if we follow the desires of our flesh, we'll die (and he's not referring to physical death).

He is referring to thelife of Jesus Christ which is formed in Christians which will die. Those who believe have eternal life and will come into condemnation, as witnessed by these words of the Lord Jesus::

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

SimpleMan77 · Nov 4, 2016

For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

Jerry Shugart said:
He is referring to thelife of Jesus Christ which is formed in Christians which will die. Those who believe have eternal life and will come into condemnation, as witnessed by these words of the Lord Jesus::

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

There is no true belief without obedience. Paul said the only faulty that availeth is "faith which WORKETH by love".

In Galatians Paul thoroughly denounces justification by works if the Mosaic Law, but says this: Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

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Danoh · Nov 4, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
There is no true belief without obedience. Paul said the only faulty that availeth is "faith which WORKETH by love".

In Galatians Paul thoroughly denounces justification by works if the Mosaic Law, but says this: Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

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The word "worketh" in that passage is in the sense of "empowered by" as it is connected to Gal. 2:20's "loved me."

Duh-uh.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Jerry Shugart · Nov 4, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
There is no true belief without obedience.

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish" (Jn.10:28).

In other words, at the moment when one believes he receives eternal life and from that point on he shall never perish.

Click to expand...

SimpleMan77 · Nov 4, 2016

Jerry Shugart said:
SimpleMan77 said:

There is no true belief without obedience.

Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish" (Jn.10:28).

In other words, at the moment when one believes he receives eternal life and from that point on he shall never perish.

Click to expand...

Exact same word in this verse:
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do SHALL he do also; and greater works than these SHALL he do; because I go unto my Father.
It's not us doing the works, but His life ALWAYS produces His works. If it doesn't, it isn't really HIS life.
Pretty simple.

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Click to expand...

SimpleMan77 · Nov 5, 2016

Danoh said:
The word "worketh" in that passage is in the sense of "empowered by" as it is connected to Gal. 2:20's "loved me."

Duh-uh.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You're partially right. The word is "energeo", and it's the same word used in Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh (energeo) miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
It's God enabling, but he is working through us. If we are void of Him WORKING through us, it's proof we don't have true faith.
If the Spirit is leading us and living in us, God WILL bring forth fruit. If the fruit is missing, the tree is either dead or the wrong type of tree.

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turbosixx · Nov 5, 2016

Jerry Shugart said:
Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life "shall never perish" (Jn.10:28).

In other words, at the moment when one believes he receives eternal life and from that point on he shall never perish.

Might I suggest you're looking at Jesus' words before his death, burial and resurrection. At this point he is looking forward to the establishment of his church. Once he has made the sacrifice for us all, then he adds something to believe.
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

He instructs the apostles on how to make people Christians.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

That is exactly what the apostles do, even Paul.

As for them being saved, how many people does the scriptures tell us were saved before Jesus' D,B&R?
Here is what scripture tells us after:
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls....47...And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

SimpleMan77 · Nov 5, 2016

For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

2 point: first, the 12 apostles (11 original + Matthias, who had been with them from the very beginning), who had been personally trained by Jesus for a combined 240,000 hours, required baptism of both Jews and Gentiles.
Secondly, Paul, who received his Gospel directly from God, also baptized (or had others baptize) Jews and Gentiles.
People's words ARE ALWAYS best understood by their actions unless you're a hypocrite. Paul wasn't hypocritical. Essentially any time you find the details recorded of conversions that happened under his ministry, you see baptism accompanying it (over and over in the Book of Acts).
Finally, modern "theologians" want to take Paul's words and try to override his actions - to tell Paul what he REALLY meant. They want to take the 1% of what Jesus said and did that was actually recorded, and think they understand the instructions and purpose of Jesus better than the men who lived with him for 3.5 years.

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Jerry Shugart · Nov 5, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
Exact same word in this verse:
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do SHALL he do also; and greater works than these SHALL he do; because I go unto my Father.
It's not us doing the works, but His life ALWAYS produces His works. If it doesn't, it isn't really HIS life.
Pretty simple.

'

That does not answer my point that a person receives eternal life when he believes and once he receives eternal life he shall never perish. If you do not agree with that then tell me exactly what you do not agree with and why.

Thanks!

Jerry Shugart · Nov 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
Might I suggest you're looking at Jesus' words before his death, burial and resurrection.

Let us look at water baptism AFTER the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved. Now let us look at this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

SimpleMan77 · Nov 5, 2016

For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

Jerry Shugart said:
Let us look at water baptism AFTER the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved. Now let us look at this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

You make my point exactly. Jesus does not mean that as long as you forsake all of that you'll be saved, even though the verse out of the context of the rest of the Bible would mean that. YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE BOOK!

It is also a TOTAL ERROR to pull a verse that says to only "Believe on the Lord" out of the context of everything else Paul said and did, and say "as long as you believe down deep inside you'll be saved".

Jesus' teachings and actions taken as a whole totally refute that. Paul's teachings and actions, taken AS A WHOLE totally refute that.

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SimpleMan77 · Nov 5, 2016

Jerry Shugart said:
'

That does not answer my point that a person receives eternal life when he believes and once he receives eternal life he shall never perish. If you do not agree with that then tell me exactly what you do not agree with and why.

Thanks!

My belief is that the entire New Testament teachings are a tapestry, and you can't pull out one thread and build a doctrine around it. We are not saved by works, it's by His grace. To take advantage of that grace, we must respond to the Gospel. Grace is offered, not forced on us. If we decide we love sin more than God, even after accepting His grace, He'll not force us to spend eternity with Him. He made us with a free will.

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1Mind1Spirit · Nov 5, 2016

turbosixx said:
As for them being saved, how many people does the scriptures tell us were saved before Jesus' D,B&R?

At least two?

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Jerry Shugart · Nov 5, 2016

dodge said:
Nope, Jesus and the Apostles taught Jesus' gospel.

The Twelve were preaching a gospel at Luke 9:2 but we can see later that they did not even know that He was to die (Lk.18:33-34).

So it is evident that they did not even know that He died for our sins, the heart and soul of the gospel of grace.

Jerry Shugart · Nov 5, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
Grace is offered, not forced on us. If we decide we love sin more than God, even after accepting His grace, He'll not force us to spend eternity with Him. He made us with a free will.

So you do not believe the Lord Jesus when He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish!

Sad.

Jerry Shugart · Nov 5, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
It is also a TOTAL ERROR to pull a verse that says to only "Believe on the Lord" out of the context of everything else Paul said and did, and say "as long as you believe down deep inside you'll be saved".

What Paul answered here is either correct or it is in error. There is no middle ground:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

What is answered here is true. Do you deny that it is true?

1Mind1Spirit · Nov 5, 2016

SimpleMan77 said:
My belief is that the entire New Testament teachings are a tapestry, and you can't pull out one thread and build a doctrine around it. We are not saved by works, it's by His grace. To take advantage of that grace, we must respond to the Gospel. Grace is offered, not forced on us. If we decide we love sin more than God, even after accepting His grace, He'll not force us to spend eternity with Him. He made us with a free will.

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SimpleMan77 · Nov 5, 2016

For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

Jerry Shugart said:
What Paul answered here is either correct or it is in error. There is no middle ground:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

What is answered here is true. Do you deny that it is true?

I categorically deny that is all that Paul and Silas told the man.

Phillip "taught Jesus" to the Ethiopian Eunuch, and after we was "taught Jesus", he said "here is water, what doth hinder me to be baptized". Phillip's "teaching Jesus" included teaching about water baptism.

Paul and Silas told him to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", at which time they no doubt told Him who Jesus was, and what it meant to believe. The matter was so urgent it couldn't wait until daybreak. Between midnight and daybreak he had already been baptized.

Baptism was ALWAYS taught with the command to believe. It doesn't always spell it out specifically, but the results bear it out. The Jailer wouldn't have been baptized in the middle of the night if it wasn't taught to him and if it wasn't presented as an important matter.

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turbosixx · Nov 5, 2016

I’m glad to see you back as well.

Jerry Shugart said:
Let us look at water baptism AFTER the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. We do know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

I agree, baptize believers. That’s what all the apostles did including Paul.

Jerry Shugart said:
Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

I would suggest your making a leap here. John is writing to people who are already Christians and having believed were baptized as instructed by Jesus and carried out by the apostles.

I would suggest we go back and look at what Jesus said and what the apostles taught and did to convert people.

As for being “born of God” what did Jesus tell Nicodemus.
“unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”
After his D,B&R Jesus instructs the apostles on how to make Christians.
Matt. 28:19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
We see the apostles do just that and we see people born of water and Spirit just as Jesus said.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jerry Shugart said:
Now let us look at this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved.

When we look at the parallel passage to this one, Matt. 28:18-20, we see baptism is how people become Christians and it’s how we call upon his name.

Consider the conversion of Paul. After he had been blinded, praying for 3 days and nights, having hands laid on him receiving his sight and filled with the Spirit, he still had something to do. Ananias says “Now why do you delay?”
What was it he hadn’t done yet? Believed, confessed or repented? He still needed to be baptized and it says to wash away his sins calling on his name. He still had his sins because he wasn’t added to Christ yet, Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
All we see him do is be baptized.
Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Baptism is how we call on upon Jesus’ name. It’s how we become Christians by being baptized “in the name of Jesus”.
Consider this. Here Paul finds disciples who believed in Jesus and were baptized but with John’s baptism. Paul asks them, did they receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. Why would he ask that if it’s given upon belief? When he finds out they didn’t know about the Holy Spirit, he asks them about their baptism. Why would he do that if there is one baptism and it’s done at belief? Shouldn’t he be asking about the gospel they were taught or did they believe it? We see that he doesn’t just give them the Holy Spirit without doing something first. He baptizes them in the name of Jesus. Then he gives them the Holy Spirit by laying his hands on them, Acts 19:1-6.

ECT For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

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