ECT Dispensation of Grace

turbosixx said:

It's the first scripture that came to mind. I'm not 100% sure his sins were forgiven. God overlooked sins and didn't deal out immediate justice or there would be no one left.

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True, but David spoke about this sort of thing long before the Cross.
Of course, we NOW know why this can be.

Right Divider said:

True, but David spoke about this sort of thing long before the Cross.

Psa 32:1-2 KJV A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. (2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
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Of course, we NOW know why this can be.

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Yep

turbosixx said:

Yep

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I understand your methodical approach, but it seems like you've been talking about trying to understand MAD. It doesn't seem like you want to and instead re-hash what you already know. Maybe you simply disagree with MAD theology ?

turbosixx said:

I understand the gospel and grace are the same but if you see a difference that's not what I'm trying to understand at this point. What I'm struggling to understand is the calling of Paul being the beginning of a dispensation.

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A dispensation of the gospel was committed unto Paul.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Why struggle with it? :idunno: Just believe it.

For example, the Mosaical law ending with appointment of Paul.

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That man could be justified apart from the law of Moses was something different (Acts 13:38-39 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV)! It is the "but now" righteousness of God without the law being manifested!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:



Why else do you think he suffered so much persecution (Acts 13:50 KJV, Galatians 5:11 KJV)?

Someone showed me an excerpt out of a book and that's what it said, that the covenant of circumcision lasted up to the calling of Paul.

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I'm not sure what book you are talking about. And I'm not interested in talking about a commentary.

Are people saved by grace on the foundation of the calling of Paul?

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We are saved by grace through the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV). We are fellowheirs and of the same Body and partakers of Christ by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6 KJV); the same gospel Paul preached as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth during his Acts ministry (Romans 1:16 KJV). It (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is the same gospel by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV). Paul declared it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. It is the why of the cross and the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV)!

On what foundation was Paul saved?

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Paul was saved by the gospel he received by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) that was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV).

turbosixx said:

It’s about the dispensation of grace but a claim was made that Paul was the first saved by grace.

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1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

I question that because he was saved the same way as those on Pentecost by being baptized in the name of Jesus.

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:nono: Paul could not have been forgiven under the kingdom gospel and doctrine as he was before a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

turbosixx said:

I understand the gospel and grace are the same but if you see a difference that's not what I'm trying to understand at this point. What I'm struggling to understand is the calling of Paul being the beginning of a dispensation. For example, the Mosaical law ending with appointment of Paul. Someone showed me an excerpt out of a book and that's what it said, that the covenant of circumcision lasted up to the calling of Paul.

Are people saved by grace on the foundation of the calling of Paul? On what foundation was Paul saved?

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1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

LA

turbosixx said:

THIS IS WHEN THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE BEGAN.

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:nono:

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

According to the verse, who was the dispensation of the gospel committed unto?
...

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

According to Ephesians 3:2 KJV, to whom was the dispensation of the grace of God given?

According to Ephesians 3:5 KJV was the mystery that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3, in other ages not made known unto the sons of men as it is now (then) revealed?

According to Ephesians 3:8 KJV who was "this grace given": to "preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ"?

And let's look at the dispensation of God:

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


According to Colossians 1:25 KJV, who was the dispensation of God given to?

patrick jane said:

I understand your methodical approach, but it seems like you've been talking about trying to understand MAD. It doesn't seem like you want to and instead re-hash what you already know. Maybe you simply disagree with MAD theology ?

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Yes I disagree. The reason I disagree is because I don't see the claims being supported by scripture. I won't agree with it until I can reconcile it with scripture. I'm sorry if I'm being difficult but I must test every spirit.

heir said:

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According to Colossians 1:25 KJV, who was the dispensation of God given to?

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To all apostles by the Spirit.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

The other Apostles already knew about it before Paul spoke with them--

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

To all apostles by the Spirit.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

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As I've said to you before ad nauseam, this is in contrast to "according to the scriptures"! As you can see it was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That would have been those who accompanied Paul!

The other Apostles already knew about it before Paul spoke with them--

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

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That says nothing to prove your point. What Peter preached in Acts 15 was NOT the gospel that Paul preached as the power of God unto salvation! You are an unbelieving loon!

heir said:

1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

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I didn't notice the in me first Christ until you had pointed it out earlier. It got me to thinking. I looked at other versions and then the greek word. It's the same word used in verse 15 for chief.

Strongs
1 Timothy 1:15 Adj-NMS
GRK: σῶσαι ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ
NAS: among whom I am foremost [of all].
KJV: I am chief.
INT: to save of whom [the] foremost am I

1 Timothy 1:16 Adj-DMS
GRK: ἐν ἐμοὶ πρώτῳ ἐνδείξηται Χριστὸς
NAS: so that in me as the foremost, Jesus
KJV: in me first Jesus Christ
INT: in me [the] foremost might show forth Christ

I understand it as Paul saying I'm an example of the greatest sinner being saved in Christ.

Let's say it does mean he is the first see comments below.

heir said:

:nono: Paul could not have been forgiven under the kingdom gospel and doctrine as he was before a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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I agree, Paul was a chosen instrument and his choosing was special but is that the basis for salvation? As Paul said, Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? If he was the first of a new dispensation and not saved as those on Pentecost, then why does his conversion look the same. Specifically, why did he need to be baptized to wash away his sins. His conversion doesn't look any different than those on Pentecost. Baptized believer.

Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Those that Paul converted he baptized as well, even Gentiles.

turbosixx said:

Yes I disagree. The reason I disagree is because I don't see the claims being supported by scripture. I won't agree with it until I can reconcile it with scripture. I'm sorry if I'm being difficult but I must test every spirit.

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No, you're not being difficult at all, I just don't think you read heir's posts, she explains everything. Maybe your mind can't grasp the truth, it happens to folks everyday. :rapture:

Lazy afternoon said:

To all apostles by the Spirit.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

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Furthermore, what Paul preached in Ephesians is "but now" (Ephesians 2:11-16 KJV) mystery truth! Unsearchable! Hid in God! These are not terms that Peter would have been preaching. Peter preached:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

While Paul preached:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

and

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Things that are different are NOT the same!

turbosixx said:

I agree, Paul was a chosen instrument and his choosing was special but is that the basis for salvation? As Paul said, Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

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The basis for salvation is not Paul, but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV). Why would you think otherwise?

If he was the first of a new dispensation and not saved as those on Pentecost, then why does his conversion look the same.

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First of all, those of Pentecost were not saved as we are today. They look forward to the blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) whereas we look back to the cross having already received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV)

Specifically, why did he need to be baptized to wash away his sins. His conversion doesn't look any different than those on Pentecost. Baptized believer.

Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name

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Ananias would have known nothing different having not received the mystery truth Paul did. Ananias preached what he knew and what he knew was kingdom doctrine like that of Acts 2:38 KJV. Why should we have expected Ananias to preach anything different?

Those that Paul converted he baptized as well, even Gentiles.

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I'm not sure why you constantly stumble into water baptism. Paul did a lot of Jewish things early in his ministry. So what? Progressive revelation...(2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV), different sendings Acts 26:17 KJV, Acts 22:17-21 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV. Why worry about such things?

Turbo, start again now with Romans chapter one. Read and understand each word. Take your time, then keep reading through Timothy. Comprehend and read it like you believe it. You'll see

heir said:

The basis for salvation is not Paul, but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV). Why would you think otherwise?

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Heir, sometimes I think it comes down to having the right Bible. The King James.

Christ only died on the cross and only risen from the dead. To pave the way for salvation.

JPPT1974 said:

Christ only died on the cross and only risen from the dead. To pave the way for salvation.

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You ok champ ?

heir said:

As I've said to you before ad nauseam, this is in contrast to "according to the scriptures"! As you can see it was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That would have been those who accompanied Paul!

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Then Paul was not the first.

That says nothing to prove your point. What Peter preached in Acts 15 was NOT the gospel that Paul preached as the power of God unto salvation! You are an unbelieving loon!

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Peter was the first to preach the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You believe the sins of the 3000 were not washed away, but that they will be in the future.

Falsehood

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

Then Paul was not the first.

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Yes, he was and 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV tells us why!

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Peter was the first to preach the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

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Peter preached a different gospel entirely to those Gentiles Acts 10:35 KJV than that which Paul preached Titus 3:5 KJV! The gospel of Christ cannot be found in Acts 10!

You believe the sins of the 3000 were not washed away, but that they will be in the future.

Falsehood

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

LA

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In typical wrongly dividing style, LA wishes to make mush out of the word of God.

Those of Pentecost will have their sins blotted out when the times of refreshing comes from the presence of the Lord! It is written:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Paul even confirms it!

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You do not get to apply Romand 5 to Israel as Israel will absolutely go through wrath!

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Not so with us members of the Body of Christ!

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You simply do NOT have your facts straight. It's natural for you 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV.