Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
i believe God is limited in many ways

but they are all constructs of our poor ability to comprehend Him



right


right


yes

thanks for the clear cut answers
but
I completely disagree with you
God loves everyone
and
God can destroy anything He creates
it is the only thing that makes sense
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.

Yet these deaths are still based on a separation physically, Galatians 4:23-28 shows that scripture is dealing with the conscience, and the duality within not two physical ethnic bloodlines mentally programmed to be enemies.

Which is the physical doctrine of TOL, all based on a historic physical duality that wrongly divides the intent of the message, making enemies of anyone who doesn't agree with the perverted literal dual delusion (based on egocentric bragging rights) of historic religions and theology, producing separatists in the wrong kingdom, Luke 17:20-21.
 

everready

New member
so let me ask you two questions

does God want some to suffer eternally?

can God destroy a soul?

No, God doesn't want anyone to suffer eternally "that's why he sent his son."

Can God destroy a soul, yes*

II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Verse 9 "with everlasting destruction"


everready
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Most Christians do not believe in the lake of fire that destroys both body and soul Matthew 10:28.

What most Christians think of as hell is really the Greek mythology account of Tartarus, whitewashed to appear to be Christian.

_____
Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/, tar-tər-əs; Greek: Τάρταρος Tartaros),[1] in ancient Greek mythology, is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans.[2] As far below Hades as the earth is below the heavens,[2] Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato in Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls were judged after death and where the wicked received divine punishment. Like other primal entities (such as the Earth, Night and Time), Tartarus was also considered to be a primordial force or deity.

In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon and triple walls to prevent sinners from escaping from it. It is guarded by a hydra with fifty black gaping jaws, which sits at a screeching gate protected by columns of solid adamantine, a substance akin to diamond – so hard that nothing will cut through it. Inside, there is a castle with wide walls, and a tall iron turret. Tisiphone, one of the Erinyes who represents revenge, stands guard sleepless at the top of this turret lashing a whip. There is a pit inside which is said to extend down into the earth twice as far as the distance from the lands of the living to Olympus. At the bottom of this pit lie the Titans, the twin sons of Aloeus, and many other sinners. Still more sinners are contained inside Tartarus, with punishments similar to those of Greek myth.
_____​

Part of the reason for the confusion is the binding of the fallen angels is a parallel story to the Tartarus imprisonment of the Titans.

Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.​


However, the binding of the fallen angels takes place in the abyss, not in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.​


The only one that the Bible mentions will be tormented forever in the lake of fire is the devil.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

Derf

Well-known member
Derf,
re: "In the same way, scripture doesn't say, specifically, 'the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity'..."

So since scripture doesn't say it, a person can go either way; ECT or EUD. Thus a person must want unsaved folks to be tortured for eternity if they select the ECT option because they could just as easily select the option of EUD.

A bit of a leap in logic there. Following the same logic, I guess you could say that those that might not think you are saved must really want you to be damned, since your salvation is not specifically mentioned in scripture. But rather the opposite is <hopefully> true--that those who might not think you are saved really would want you to be saved, and therefore would share the gospel with you. And the same applies to anyone whose salvation is not specified directly in scripture.

But neither of our opinions on ECT/EUD count much for what is really the case. That's why we want to have reasonable, intelligent discussion about what the scripture really says, so we don't give people we witness to, or brothers and sisters in Christ, either a false hope or a false view of God.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I think you think too highly of your "proofs". If "death" always equals "complete destruction" and "annihilation", then you probably have a point. But if not, most of the verses below are ambiguous toward our topic. Shall we go through them? What I've done is to apply colors to the verses and to some of your commentary to show that your point is weak or not addressed. The reasoning for the colors is sprinkled among the quotations, using the verses you supplied to also supply the reasons why your point is not made. The reason I used light colors is to lessen their presence. There are still a few verses that are still black. Most of those deal more directly with the topic, but not necessarily a slam-dunk for your argument--most still have lots of room for either interpretation, once your initial assumption--that "death" and "destroy" and "perish" always mean "total annihilation"--has been shown to be false.

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1 Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
Since you have pointed out that the bible never says "eternal torment" repeating it for each verse is hardly helpful. As far as determining whether "destruction" means "annihilation" or "eternal torment", this verse is ambiguous. Thus I think we can remove from consideration all of your comments about the bible not saying "eternal torment". I've taken that liberty below by greying out those comments.
2 Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
Body and Soul are "destroyed" in hell. But if "destroy" means the same as "kill", then you have to deal with the idea that the body is killed, then it is killed again. On the other hand, if "destroy" means something different than "kill", which might be why Jesus used the different word, it suggests that there is something else going on in the second part of the verse than in the first. What that is, is somewhat ambiguous for our discussion.
3 Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4 Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
It's interesting that you focus on the word "perish". How is "perish" presented? It is clarified with an adverb: "likewise". What does "likewise" refer to? for both Vs 3 and Vs 5, "likewise" refers to people that had "perished", meaning they had been killed. This is obviously not the same as being cast into hell for a limited time of torment any more than it is the same as being cast into hell for eternal torment. In fact, I think we would all agree that the Gallileans in vs 2 and the men of Jerusalem in vs 4 still had yet to face their final judgment. So "perish" is definitely NOT an utter and absolute and final destruction, at least not in this case. I've taken the liberty of changing the "perish" passages to green to show that they can't be used to show "annihilation".

In addition, you acknowledge here that "perish" and "will be killed" are synonymous, and I think you recognize the "will be killed" and like phrases apply just as well to the "first death" as to the "second death". So I've changed text colors below to yellow where the phrase is used to mean either the first death, or is ambiguous as to which death is being talked about.


5 John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish.
They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6 John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7 John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8 Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9 1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
Yes, "destroy". Did you realize there are no laws against suicide in our country? There are some against "attempted" suicide, but not "successful" suicide. Why is that? I think it's obvious that there is not much penalty we can enforce against someone who is already dead. If "temple" refers to the man's body, then how could God destroy something that the man has already destroyed? Or maybe "the temple" refers to the church according to the passage, against which the very gates of hell cannot prevail. It doesn't make sense to say that "destroy" means to annihilate completely, since it would be impossible for the man to annihilate the church. Either way, it removes the comprehensive use of "destroy" or "destruction" to mean "completely annihilate". I've taken the liberty to change the text color to a light tan on all those verses that use "destroy" or "destruction", to show that those can't be used to prove your point.
10 Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11 2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12 Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13 Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14 James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15 James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy,
not eternally torture.

16 2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17 2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18 1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19 Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20 Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21 Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22 Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23 Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24 Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25 Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26 Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27 Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.


28 Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,


29 Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30 Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.


31 Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32 Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33 Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.


34 Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35 Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!


36 Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.


37 Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38 Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.


39 Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40 Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41 Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42 Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43 Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44 Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
Is the Lord going to burn the wicked by fire or kill them by the sword? If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, then what does the sword here have to do with anything regarding executing judgment? Seems to me that this verse is not dealing with the "second death", but the first one.
45 and 46 Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return.
(Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47 Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.

This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
If Sheol "consumes" them, then how could there be anything left for the lake of fire to "consume". I guess you'll have to get rid of the verses that use the word "consume" to mean "completely annihilate". I'll use light purple for those.
48 Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49 Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.


50 Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.


51 2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52 for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53 2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
I think I can safely say I've "destroyed" your argument. Not that every scrap of argument has been consumed, but at least the mountain has been brought low, according to a common application of "destruction"--it has ceased to be a mountain, even though it may still be something.

At the same time, I'm not saying that I've secured a victory for ECT. I haven't. What I hope I've done is to get you to stop flinging out verses that use the word "death" or "perish" or "destruction" along with your rather tiresome, and underwhelming, conclusion: "See, it doesn't say 'eternal torment', therefore ECT is unbiblical."

I have one more thing to add. 2 Th 2:3 says: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

"Perdition" is the Greek, apōleia (Strong's #G684), which is translated in the KJV as follows in the NT:
perdition (8x), destruction (5x), waste (2x), damnable (1x), to die (with G1519) (1x), perish (with G1498) (with G1519) (1x), pernicious (1x).

2 Th 2:8-9 says: 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Maybe that doesn't completely represent all of the words your verses used, but it comes awfully close. The Lord shall "consume" him with the spirit of his mouth (not with fire) and "destroy" him with the brightness of his coming (not with fire).

I think this "son of perdition" is closely aligned to the beast of Revelation, who is mentioned in Rev 20:10 KJV: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, if "consume" or "destroy" means to annihilate completely, and Jesus does this to the Son of Perdition at His coming--which seems to be before the 1000 years that Satan was bound, then it at least doesn't seem to be the case that the son of perdition was really "consumed" or "destroyed" in the way you think of prior to his being thrown in the lake of fire where he is (again?) "consumed" or "destroyed" for 1000 years before being joined by Satan, who is also then "consumed" and "destroyed" presumably while he (Satan, at least, if not the beast and false prophet also) is tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I think your case is weak.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Yes, of course, but are we understanding both sides of the argument.
yes i understand that the non ECT people use the physical
death verses and apply them to the second death


If any of us say "scripture says", then they need to make sure we are reading all of scripture. So if the wages of sin is "death" do we understand fully what "death means. ECTers say "death" is "spiritual death". Ok, and Timotheos is saying "death" means that thing which has died has ceased to function.

Timotheos is willfully ignorant about spiritual death so he
can hold on to his belief system
What is a spirit that has ceased to function?
asleep
On the other hand, is anybody going to be tortured forever? If anybody is, is it a just punishment? How do we decide what a "just" punishment is?

are spirits annihilated ?

:nono:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

the recounting of the rich man in the fire is a picture
of a spirit not being consumed by fire?

Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

if your spirit being separated from your body does not
annihilate your spirit why would fire annihilate your spirit.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Most Christians do not believe in the lake of fire that destroys both body and soul Matthew 10:28.


The only one that the Bible mentions will be tormented forever in the lake of fire is the devil.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​


Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
It appears that you are trying to make the claim that Jesus and the angels will be in hell forever while the people that receive the mark are being tormented.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The verse is clearly about the time of the bowls of wrath being poured out right before the return of Jesus as King of Kings.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Only some get everlasting life, the others are held in contempt, long after they are destroyed.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
It appears that you are trying to make the claim that Jesus and the angels will be in hell forever while the people that receive the mark are being tormented.

really ?


Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The verse is clearly about the time of the bowls of wrath being poured out right before the return of Jesus as King of Kings.
:think:

:nono:
Only some get everlasting life, the others are held in contempt, long after they are destroyed.
some will have shame... you have to exist feel shame
and they have contempt too.

why would they be held in contempt after they are destroyed?

strange tho Timotheos has Christians in everlasting shame and
contempt, maybe you should go with that :nono:

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The shame at the judgment is before they are destroyed.

There is no language change from the shame is theirs to
the contempt is not theirs , in that verse

you have to side with Timotheos and Christians in everlasting shame and contempt.

Why would I hold Jeffrey Dahmer in contempt after he died?

holding dahmer in contempt is crazy ,
according to you he will not exist
and that makes you crazy for holding nothing in contempt .:chuckle:


contempt H1860
der-aw-one', day-raw-one'
From an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion: - abhorring, contempt.


the way I read it is there are only 2 kinds of people who awake,
1 .those with everlasting life
2.those that have everlasting contempt and shame
 

Timotheos

New member
I think you think too highly of your "proofs". If "death" always equals "complete destruction" and "annihilation", then you probably have a point. But if not, most of the verses below are ambiguous toward our topic. Shall we go through them?

Yes, I think we should go through them one by one. It should be instructive. But let's not go through all of the proof against eternal conscious torment in one post, because it gets too long to handle.

I'll address your objections in later posts.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Yet these deaths are still based on a separation physically, Galatians 4:23-28 shows that scripture is dealing with the conscience, and the duality within not two physical ethnic bloodlines mentally programmed to be enemies.

Which is the physical doctrine of TOL, all based on a historic physical duality that wrongly divides the intent of the message, making enemies of anyone who doesn't agree with the perverted literal dual delusion (based on egocentric bragging rights) of historic religions and theology, producing separatists in the wrong kingdom, Luke 17:20-21.

you should be banned for copying that post
and
tim should be banned for posting it
 

Timotheos

New member
Here is your first objection.
Derf said:
As far as determining whether "destruction" means "annihilation" or "eternal torment", this verse is ambiguous. Thus I think we can remove from consideration all of your comments about the bible not saying "eternal torment". I've taken that liberty below by greying out those comments.
We are discussing Matthew 7:13
This verse says that the way is wide that leads to destruction. Clearly if you take this verse at face value it means that the wicked will be destroyed. You express some frustration because you think that "destruction" might mean "eternal torment". Can you see that if someone is eternal tormented that they cannot also be destroyed? I mean, it is impossible to torment someone who has been destroyed, right? If I wanted to torment a dog (and I certainly do NOT!) then I would not first burn the dog to ash and THEN start kicking it! Words have meanings. If we start to deny the meanings of words, then we can come up with any doctrine that pleases us. This is not the way to read Scripture.
But you expressed doubt that destruction in Matthew 7:13 means the complete death of the person who is destroyed. It always helps to look at the context. You should look at the context for every verse I post, as the context also proves that what I am saying is correct. The context for Matthew 7:13 is two gates. One gate leads to destruction. You say that you don't know whether that means eternal torment or death. Look at the context, the OTHER gate leads to life. So the context indicates that the gate that leads to destruction leads to the opposite of life, which is death. Complete destruction, not eternal life in hell being tormented alive.
Derf said:
Since you have pointed out that the bible never says "eternal torment" repeating it for each verse is hardly helpful.
It is very helpful, since this is the very thing that ECTists always forget!
ALL of these verses say that the wicked will be destroyed, they will perish, they will die, they will go to their deaths, they will be burnt to ash and blown away, and they will be no more. They all agree. AND NONE of them say that the wicked will be given eternal life and tormented alive forever. That was the whole point of posting them. The Bible does not say that the wicked will be given eternal life in hell for the purpose of being tormented alive forever while they are dead.

I want to comment on your other objections, but I will do it in a later post so this does not get too long. There are some very real problems with your objections.
 
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