Why would God need a hell?

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Mickiel

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I am shocked at how some Christians actually teach that salvation is only for believers, or even only for Christians; they think Christ has nothing to do with those who reject him. In Col. 2:11 it teaches that Christ is ALL AND IN ALL! He is IN everyone! Christianity cannot change this or explain it away from universal salvation. This is astounding revelation for all humans being saved, because if Christ is in you, you are saved!

Jesus is in all, what does that mean? It means he died for all, rose for all, loves all, cares about all of our futures, has us all covered, represents us all, is the ransom for all, he is in all. Oh I love the word of God, with salvation there is neither Jew or Greek, circumcision or uncircumcision- which means converted or unconverted, bond or free - which means believer or unbeliever, salvation belongs to ALL! Man, the truth turns me on!
 

patrick jane

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I am shocked at how some Christians actually teach that salvation is only for believers, or even only for Christians; they think Christ has nothing to do with those who reject him. In Col. 2:11 it teaches that Christ is ALL AND IN ALL! He is IN everyone! Christianity cannot change this or explain it away from universal salvation. This is astounding revelation for all humans being saved, because if Christ is in you, you are saved!

Jesus is in all, what does that mean? It means he died for all, rose for all, loves all, cares about all of our futures, has us all covered, represents us all, is the ransom for all, he is in all. Oh I love the word of God, with salvation there is neither Jew or Greek, circumcision or uncircumcision- which means converted or unconverted, bond or free - which means believer or unbeliever, salvation belongs to ALL! Man, the truth turns me on!

Do you have to do anything to maintain your salvation ?
 

Mickiel

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Do you have to do anything to maintain your salvation ?

No you do not, its reserved in heaven. What could a human do to maintain something like salvation? That is why Christ over ruled the law, because the law was condemning people, because they were not able to righteously keep it. We can't maintain righteousness, not even the best of us. Don't fool yourself; we cannot live a sinless life.

Now, I think that a believer who is true of heart will at least " Try" to live as best they can, but it is Christ and God who " Maintains our salvation." Salvation is such a done deal, the bible reveals that people can just live however they are living; it just does not matter. Believers are given guidelines, because judgment starts with them, not unbelievers.

In Rev. 22:11, right in the last chapter of the bible, " He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is holy, be holy still." Here the word of God is advising people to remain as they are, because it just does not matter. Advising them to remain filthy! Because their salvation is secure!
 

Stuu

New member
I am shocked at how some Christians actually teach that salvation is only for believers, or even only for Christians; they think Christ has nothing to do with those who reject him. In Col. 2:11 it teaches that Christ is ALL AND IN ALL! He is IN everyone! Christianity cannot change this or explain it away from universal salvation. This is astounding revelation for all humans being saved, because if Christ is in you, you are saved!
Not in my name, thanks.

Stuart
 

Mickiel

New member
Salvation was predestined for all, it was not earned by any and cannot be maintained by a believer. In Titus 1:2 it says God PROMISED eternal life BEFORE the world began. Salvation was GIVEN to humanity before our very lives were given to us.
 

Mickiel

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In Titus 3:7 we are justified by HIS Grace; not by anything we could DO, not by how we live, not by our works, not by our belief, NOT by accepting Christ, we are justified BY the Grace of God! THAT is WHY we are saved!
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
considerations of love's will......

considerations of love's will......


Granted all the problems with 'hell' and the original words translated into the English word 'hell' in the Bible, and its various beliefs built upon those words (like ECT), we still have the universal law of karma, which holds that all actions naturally have consequences, and this law holds in all worlds wherever consciousness and actions exist. I know this discussion is within a so called 'biblical' context,...but there is always more than what a limited canon of religious writings can reveal or include. In this case, 'universalism', 'conditional immortality' or a more sadistic form of 'eternal punishment' can be supported by various 'proof-texts' among its believers, since the English word-forms can be variously translated, approved or rejected on grounds provided for by the translator, so it falls back to a subjective belief or preference of one's own 'epistemology' and 'eschatology'. Even still an diligent student of truth will always be researching and re-evaluating his knowledge or position on any subject or particular, and be willing and open to change, modify or expand on that, as one learns more.

Besides an application of 'textual criticism', the concept of ECT (eternal conscious torment) can be challenged on principle alone, both morally and philosophically....which we've covered elsewhere. 'Conditional immortality' or 'Universalism' or some variation thereby, trumps over ECT in many ways, since thru it all, the justice and mercy of 'God' ever holds by a Deity who is Love, and governs all by his eternal wisdom, upholding forever his eternal WILL. - in this light, Infinite Love and its eternal will, is all-supreme, whether any souls can refuse the divine will and suffer an eternal extinction (final death) or have their will ultimately surrender to the divine will, by way of surrender. (note that in both cases the soul merges back into 'God' and the primordial elements or OverSoul of creation...whether that entity is still a functioning soul-unit, or if its been disintegrated).

So,...anyway you consider the potentials and possibilities, the divine love and will ultimately triumphs in the cosmos, even if 'parts' of the totality are disintegrated or forfeit their life-potential. There is much more here to consider in the eschatology of souls and of a whole cosmos, where 'God' who is infinite LOVE is by virtue of its own nature and will the ultimate ruling power and presence in the cosmos. When you consider the infinity of love, its eternal power and will....it alone is all-supreme, absolute, ultimate, all-transcending. What is absolute will always be absolute in its nature and constitution, while all that is relative or changing exists only by virture of that Absolute reality which upholds/maintains all existence.
 
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Mickiel

New member
Granted all the problems with 'hell' and the original words translated into the English word 'hell' in the Bible, and its various beliefs built upon those words (like ECT), we still have the universal law of karma, which holds that all actions naturally have consequences, and this law holds in all worlds wherever consciousness and actions exist. I know this discussion is within a so called 'biblical' context,...but there is always more than what a limited canon of religious writings can reveal or include. In this case, 'universalism', 'conditional immortality' or a more sadistic form of 'eternal punishment' can be supported by various 'proof-texts' among its believers, since the English word-forms can be variously translated, approved or rejected on grounds provided for by the translator, so it falls back to a subjective belief or preference of one's own 'epistemology' and 'eschatology'. Even still an diligent student of truth will always be researching and re-evaluating his knowledge or position on any subject or particular, and be willing and open to change, modify or expand on that, as one learns more.

Besides an application of 'textual criticism', the concept of ECT (eternal conscious torment) can be challenged on principle alone, both morally and philosophically....which we've covered elsewhere. 'Conditional immortality' or 'Universalism' or some variation thereby, trumps over ECT in many ways, since thru it all, the justice and mercy of 'God' ever holds by a Deity who is Love, and governs all by his eternal wisdom, upholding forever his eternal WILL. - in this light, Infinite Love and its eternal will, is all-supreme, whether any souls can refuse the divine will and suffer an eternal extinction (final death) or have their will ultimately surrender to the divine will, by way of irresistible surrender. (note that in both cases the soul merges back into 'God' and the primordial elements or OverSoul of creation...whether that entity is still a functioning soul-unit, or if its been disintegrated).

So,...anyway you consider the potentials and possibilities, the divine love and will....ultimately triumphs in the cosmos, even if 'parts' of the totality are disintegrated or forfeit their life-potential. There is much more here to consider in the eschatology of souls and of a whole cosmos, where 'God' who is infinite LOVE is by virtue of its own nature and will...the ultimate ruling power and presence in the cosmos. When you consider the infinity of love, its eternal power and will....it alone is all-supreme, absolute, ultimate, all-transcending. What is absolute will always be absolute in its nature and constitution, while all that is relative or changing exists only by virture of that Absolute reality which upholds/maintains all existence.



You remind me of this;

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/beauty.html
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
I don't know God or Christ, but I believe they exist.

Then you are leaning on your own understanding. When you get to know THEM, please consider that much of what you know know will change.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
"There's no deceit in truth." 1/1

"We can keep our heads buried in the sand, watch humanity continue to crumble and self-destruct."

Uh you cant watch much with your head buried in the sand. It's much worse than you sand dwellers realize. 1/2

"or we can claim our souls as our true identity"

Are you implying were being lied to?

"and expose this traditional interpretation of scriptures they pass on to us to justify living without real self worth."

Matthew 16:25

LOL. Even I have to admit that was a bad piece of philosophy. I hope God will forgive me. I don't think we're being lied to so much as we are unaware of the truth that we are one with God because of the soul. I think the lie is ultimately the unconscious belief that we are separate. Most people don't go around consciously thinking that they want to separate from God. The personality is really really good at what it does mainly because it is so off the radar. It's nearly invisible and that's the way it likes it. Plus no one wants to admit that the enemy is a part of us (pride). Once we begin to figure things out the personality loses its power. It's main weapon is secrecy and it will do anything not to have its cover blown. No wonder its represented as a serpent in the scriptures! It will grip and sink its claws and teeth into whatever it can grab onto... (thoughts and beliefs for instance) and when it finally runs out of things it will just come up with something else. Anything is better than nothing. It wants to avoid what is infinite and eternal because it judges it as worthless and treats itself the same way. It is only looking for the feeling of its infinite self-worth but doesn't realize it is already one with it. It has been conditioned and peer pressured to believe the contrary. Think about when we were children how naturally close we were to the state of the soul. We get older and we seem to forget. The beautiful thing about the soul is that it is nothing but the truth and it is our true identity. It doesn't lift a finger yet is all-powerful. We don't have to fall for thinking we are not one with omnipotent, omnipresent, universal, undivided, untainted, eternity and infinity. Praise be to God!
 

Mickiel

New member
Then you are leaning on your own understanding. When you get to know THEM, please consider that much of what you know know will change.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

I would rather lean on my own understanding for now; I don't trust the understanding of anyonelse.
 

Mickiel

New member
The biblical terminology of " All" is most impressive and inclusive; let me show you something in Heb. 1:2-3, Christ is appointed heir of ALL things, and he UPHOLDS all things by the word of his power, and by himself has purged us from our sins; this is HOW our salvation is maintained, Jesus is upholding it for us. We can't loose it, nothing can remove it, you don't have to fear that, unless you buy into Christian theology, they teach you can loose it, and that you must maintain it.

Our sins have been purged; and that is what the true lake of fire does. That fire that Jesus said we ALL must be salted with; the fire that satan and his demons want you to think is the Christian hell. To keep you in bondage and fear.
 

Apple7

New member
The biblical terminology of " All" is most impressive and inclusive; let me show you something in Heb. 1:2-3, Christ is appointed heir of ALL things, and he UPHOLDS all things by the word of his power, and by himself has purged us from our sins; this is HOW our salvation is maintained, Jesus is upholding it for us. We can't loose it, nothing can remove it, you don't have to fear that, unless you buy into Christian theology, they teach you can loose it, and that you must maintain it.

Our sins have been purged; and that is what the true lake of fire does. That fire that Jesus said we ALL must be salted with; the fire that satan and his demons want you to think is the Christian hell. To keep you in bondage and fear.


Why do you keep using scripture that you don't believe in...?

Since you are dwelling on Hebrews, let this passage bake your noodle...


Heb 2.14

επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον

epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon

Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;



καταργηση = ‘katargēsē’

‘katargēsē’ definition:

Strong’s #G2673. Aorist tense verb, 3rd person singular. The Devil is to be reduced to inactivity through the death of Christ (Heb 2.14). The Epistle to the Hebrews fills out this declaration by stating that through the death of Christ even the one who has power over death, the devil, is condemned to inactivity or ineffectiveness in relation to the Christian (Heb 2.14). To cause something to come to an end or no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside. To render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. To cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. To deprive of force, influence, power. To cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish. To cease, to pass away, be done away. To be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one. To terminate all intercourse with one. to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void. To cause something to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste. To cause something to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless. From #G2596 & #G691.

Strong’s #G2596. Down from.

Strong’s #G691. To be idle.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume one, pp. 452 - 454
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature, 3rd edition (BDAG), Frederick William Danker, pp. 525 - 526
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph H. Thayer, p. 336
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the New Testament, Warren Baker, Warren Baker, based on the lexicons of Edward Robinson & John Parkhurst, pp. 841 - 842
The New Strong’s expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible (red-letter edition), James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., p. 133



Make no mistake.

Jesus died on The Cross for the ones that follow Him!
 

Mickiel

New member
Make no mistake.

Jesus died on The Cross for the ones that follow Him!



2 Corinth. 5:15, " And he died for ALL!" Christianity cannot reduce salvation to just those who follow Christ, he died for ALL! 1 Pet. 3:8. Notice how some Christians are just against these scriptures that include all in Jesus death, they don't like it. Imagine that, being trained by your church not to believe that Jesus died for all.
 

Apple7

New member
2 Corinth. 5:15, " And he died for ALL!" Christianity cannot reduce salvation to just those who follow Christ, he died for ALL!

Adding context spanks your worldview...


2 Cor 5.14 - 17

For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised. So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so. So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!


Are you in Christ, brother?

No, you are not.

Therefore, He did not die for you...
 

KingdomRose

New member
Punishment is a natural thing but the nature of paradise or hell/punishment is unknown

Oh yes they are known. The nature of Paradise can be seen at Isaiah 11:6-9; 33:24; 35:1; 65:21-25 and Micah 4:1-4, for a start, if you would be so kind as to read them.

The nature of "hell" is known as well. Examine the three Greek words that have been translated as "hell"---Hades, Gehenna, & Tartarus. They all have DIFFERENT MEANINGS, yet all are translated as "hell." Majorly confusing, wouldn't you say?

"Hades" means the grave.

"Gehenna" means complete destruction....as happens to something that is lit on fire. (Emphasis on the OBLITERATION, rather than the fire.)

"Tartarus" means a state of spiritual darkness.


Can you believe that all three are rendered "hell"? It depends on the context, as to what "hell" means. It could mean any one of the above. What it does NOT mean is a literal place where people are slowly roasted over coals that never die down.

:burnlib:
 
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