Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by ebenz47037
When I say "educate" or "teach," I pretty much mean the same thing. To teach (or educate) someone, you are training them with new skills, behaviours, etc.

I use educate to mean the widest umbrella that encompases teaching, training, tutoring etc. Whe one trains a mechnical apprentice it is a form of education but not necessarily teaching.

A good education is one that produces productive citizens who do not need to live on the public dole if they're healthy and able.

I think education includes the making of productive citizens but it is also preparedness for life in all its aspects. I think one's status as unemployed or not is not an issue in the definition of the term. I have met many good and well educated people that are unemployed. These are economic circumstances which are unrelated to education. e.g. The unemployed music professor I met was on the dole because of the closure oif his department at the university. Music classes at the uni do not make enough money whereas more students wanted to do economics! He was also the victim of fraud. Each case must be asesed on its own merit.

A "subintelligent housewife (I guess I would fall into that category for you, Mark.)"

Hardly!

might be able to educate her children, if she realizes the different learning styles that are required.

"Might" is a conditioner and I agree. However, education is much more than understanding learning styles. It is also matching teaching style to learning style (amongst a thousand other variables!)

a person must be patient ... not need to have a large knowledge of psychology .... able to express their thoughts and ideas verbally (aloud) ... know how to read (that's a given).

I think there is MUCH more necessary than those few items, which although important, do not relate greatly to the educational task. If one wants to educate one has to know HOW to educate including educational theory and methodolgy. This is best done, for homeschoolers, through mentorship.

Education is more than an extension of "mummy parenting pre school kids."

I think so! However many of the homeschoolers I have spoken with think that because they have parented their children they can also educate others. Professional teachers may also have children (I have three ...one who I taught in a Chrstian School) however they still need to do their 4 years of university study to becoame a teacher in Australia. If education was that easy then no qualification would be needed to be a teacher in a public school.

It is also of utmost importance that homeschoolers rid themselves of this image that their teaching is merely "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". I am sure that the arguments presented by homeschoolers have damaged their cause in this respect.

To be valued in the educational community one must speak the lingo and know the trends. Homeschoolers do neither! Homeschoolers present themselves as "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". Their reasons for homeschooling are not positive reasions (because it is GOOD ... a welcoming response to the "Other") but rather they are negative reasons (public schoooling is BAD ...a fearful response to the "Other"). This is why knowledge of critical reflection would greatly help homeschoolers.

I don't want my daughter to think that the only way people will like her is if she doesn't show that she's as smart or smarter than some people.

As Christians we should value all people as all are made in the image of God. Ubnfortunately the world does not hold that view and values people on their education, wealth, and job ...not necessarily in that order!

I was bored to tears in the public school system.

So was I! In early primary school (elementary school?) I was classified as sub- intelligent because I failed an IQ test dismally (less than 70!) I had looked out the window thinking about other things at the time of the test. I was failing most of the exams for the same reason. Learning about Spot the dog and Jim and Mary didn't interest me. My inspiration was a public school teacher (and a Catholic) who saw my boredom and rectified it. (I have kept in contact with him for the past 40 years ...a great bloke!) He told me the tests were important and asked if I could I help try. I was retested and came out with very high score (120+) I went from the bottom of the 200 people in my year to 1st in a period of 6 months ...and have never looked back since. I choose teaching as a profession because I wanted to help people in exactly the same way that I had been helped.

There's no way that I would trust the people who assess the competencies of the "professional" educators in public schools. Why should I? If they're letting "professional" educators like the ones I've had to deal with work in the schools with children, why should I trust their judgement at all?

There are good and bad in all fields ...and all shades between. One searches for the good and spits out the bad ... and trusts goodness and truth. "Ain't no-body perfick!" as I used to tell my pupils (with the incorrect spelling to make a point!) I have met good and bad public school educators ...but I have also met a far higher percentage of poor homeschoolers.

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I use educate to mean the widest umbrella that encompases teaching, training, tutoring etc. Whe one trains a mechnical apprentice it is a form of education but not necessarily teaching.

But, the apprentice must be taught how to do what he's doing. Doesn't he? See? For me "teaching" is the umbrella.

It includes all that you've mentioned above.

I think education includes the making of productive citizens but it is also preparedness for life in all its aspects. I think one's status as unemployed or not is not an issue in the definition of the term. I have met many good and well educated people that are unemployed. These are economic circumstances which are unrelated to education. e.g. The unemployed music professor I met was on the dole because of the closure oif his department at the university. Music classes at the uni do not make enough money whereas more students wanted to do economics! He was also the victim of fraud. Each case must be asesed on its own merit.

But, if a person remains unemployed and on the state welfare roles year after year after year, something went wrong in the educating process. I, too, have met many good and well-educated people who were unemployed. These people (who were well-educated) did not stay unemployed. We have that problem a lot in the United States. Too many people come out of the public school system not prepared for life in general. Right now, if a teenage girl gets pregnant in high school, she can finish out high school. They have daycare centers at some schools. But, the end result of this girl's education is not that she's prepared for real life. She feels that she will be taken care of because as soon as her baby was born, she got welfare and food stamps and a free education that came equipped with a free babysitter. After finishing school, she goes out into the real world and has several more children on welfare.

Hardly!

I'll take that as a compliment and thank you for it. :chuckle:

"Might" is a conditioner and I agree. However, education is much more than understanding learning styles. It is also matching teaching style to learning style (amongst a thousand other variables!)

I don't think that every parent is the best educator for their child. But, I, like many here on TOL, believe that a bad homeschool education is better than a bad public school education. All I did was give you the basics of what I believe about educating children.

I think there is MUCH more necessary than those few items, which although important, do not relate greatly to the educational task. If one wants to educate one has to know HOW to educate including educational theory and methodolgy. This is best done, for homeschoolers, through mentorship.

The thing is that in the United States, homeschooled children (as a rule) are doing better than public schooled children in national testing and national spelling, geography, and history bees. I don't know about the statistics. My information comes mainly from www.hslda.org. I do know from my own experience that my daughter's tested in the upper ten percent of the children using her particular test for the last seven years when I choose to have her tested.

I've always had a great love of education, despite how badly my school years went. I always wanted to be a teacher, believe it or not.

But, after seeing the way that the public schools have deteriorated over the past sixteen years, I would never want to be a public school teacher. Teachers are not physically safe in their classrooms anymore in the United States. If I do it at all, I will teach math and/or music in a private school after my daughter finishes high school.

I think so! However many of the homeschoolers I have spoken with think that because they have parented their children they can also educate others. Professional teachers may also have children (I have three ...one who I taught in a Chrstian School) however they still need to do their 4 years of university study to becoame a teacher in Australia. If education was that easy then no qualification would be needed to be a teacher in a public school.

I weighed the options before deciding to homeschool my daughter. Neither the public nor the private schools were doing what she needed. No one was willing to listen to me when I was trying to get her the help she needed. Basically, all of the "professional" educators that I've dealt with looked at me as an "over-achieving mommy who was projecting her own problems onto her daughter." I only have the one child. And, I know that what works for her may not work for any others I may have in the future. But, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I do know how to use different styles of teaching for different types of learners. My nephew lived with me for a short while. I homeschooled him as well. He was supposed to be in the fourth grade when he came out here. But, he could barely read and couldn't add and subtract numbers correctly. I explained to my daughter that C needed more of my attention at the time where teaching was concerned (she was reviewing anyway) and that if she needed help, to ask me. We did pretty good that year. I got my nephew reading at his "grade level" within two months and by the end of his three month stay with me, he knew his multiplication facts as well as how to add and subtract. My daughter, on the other hand, taught herself basic algebraic operations while I was busy with her cousin. And, this is from a child who claims to hate math.

It is also of utmost importance that homeschoolers rid themselves of this image that their teaching is merely "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". I am sure that the arguments presented by homeschoolers have damaged their cause in this respect.

And, the arguments presented by "professional" educators that I've known in the U.S. have damaged their cause in this respect. That is why I don't trust teachers.

To be valued in the educational community one must speak the lingo and know the trends. Homeschoolers do neither! Homeschoolers present themselves as "an extension of mummy parenting pre school kids". Their reasons for homeschooling are not positive reasions (because it is GOOD ... a welcoming response to the "Other") but rather they are negative reasons (public schoooling is BAD ...a fearful response to the "Other"). This is why knowledge of critical reflection would greatly help homeschoolers.

Personally, I don't care if I'm "valued in the educational community." All I care about right now as far as education goes is giving my daughter the best education that I can. As I said before, if that means getting tutors or other teachers for her later, so be it. It looks like I may have known what you meant by "critical reflection" all along, Mark. I had never heard that term, though. And, sometimes, I do have a problem expressing myself about something that I'm passionate about (i.e. homeschooling).

As Christians we should value all people as all are made in the image of God. Ubnfortunately the world does not hold that view and values people on their education, wealth, and job ...not necessarily in that order!

Whether the world values my daughter and myself for our education, wealth, and job matters not to me. I am doing my best to do what I feel God called me to do, which is to be a mother. That means I am supposed to teach my daughter right from wrong. And, when I see someone doing something wrong for my daughter, I'm supposed to correct that. I did. When no one would listen, I took matters into my own hands.

I now homeschool!

So was I! In early primary school (elementary school?) I was classified as sub- intelligent because I failed an IQ test dismally (less than 70!) I had looked out the window thinking about other things at the time of the test. I was failing most of the exams for the same reason. Learning about Spot the dog and Jim and Mary didn't interest me. My inspiration was a public school teacher (and a Catholic) who saw my boredom and rectified it. (I have kept in contact with him for the past 40 years ...a great bloke!) He told me the tests were important and asked if I could I help try. I was retested and came out with very high score (120+) I went from the bottom of the 200 people in my year to 1st in a period of 6 months ...and have never looked back since. I choose teaching as a profession because I wanted to help people in exactly the same way that I had been helped.

I was tested when I was about 12. I don't remember the results. I know I tested high because I never had to take another reading/literature class in school again.

On my yearly, state required tests, I always scored a minimum of three years ahead of my grade level in reading, English, writing, science, history, and math. I ended up moving to a small school in my last year of high school and graduated 12th in a class of 54 students. That wasn't bad considering that I had to move 2000 miles to find a school that was somewhat more suitable to my learning style.

But, that took twelve years to find.

There are good and bad in all fields ...and all shades between. One searches for the good and spits out the bad ... and trusts goodness and truth. "Ain't no-body perfick!" as I used to tell my pupils (with the incorrect spelling to make a point!) I have met good and bad public school educators ...but I have also met a far higher percentage of poor homeschoolers.

I know that. If you want to use the "Ain't no-body perfic!" phrase for "professional" educators, you must use it for homeschoolers as well. Your experiences and my experiences seem to have been the same except in reverse order. I've seen both good and bad homeschoolers...but I have met a far higher percentage of public school teachers.

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Next on the list....

Next on the list....

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
- lack of quality controls and quality assurance

There is a lack of quality controls and quality assurance in public schools in the United States nowadays, Mark. Anymore, public schools are just a place to stash the kids so that parents don't have to spend all their time with them. Just MHO, but I think you ought to find out if more Americans feel that way as well. A lot that I know feel that way.

As to any quality controls and/or assurance in my homeschooling, if I come to something that I cannot teach my daughter, I will find someone who can. But, that's not something that I run into very often. So far, my daughter's only wanted to learn one thing that I never had any interest in whatsoever: geology. So, my late husband and I hired a geologist to teach her for a few weeks. Of course, this was back when my daughter was in third grade (eight years old) and she's now in eighth grade (thirteen years old).

- lack of importance given to educational record keeping

:nono: You may have that a lot in Australia. But, here in the U.S., homeschooling parents tend to be fastidious about record keeping. I have three copies of my daughter's records for the last six years of school (electronic, cdrom, and paper). The next four years, it will be especially important for me to keep excellent records because I want my daughter to attend college.

- over protection in a "mommy bubble"

I have no problem admitting I'm over-protective of my daughter. But, you have to look at each situation differently. I have very good reasons to be over-protective of my daughter that I will not hash out publically. Some parents are over-protective. But, most of them are not. In fact, the majority of parents in the U.S. lean more towards neglecting their children than being over-protective. Nowadays, parents have to have their children busy, busy, busy; soccer games, baseball games, karate class, dance recitals, etc, etc, etc... That doesn't sound over-protective to me.

- over reliance on wives to homeschool causing an imbalance of male / female role models

Why does there have to be a balance of male/female educators? I was my daughter's primary educator because my husband worked to support his family. But, he had a very active role in our schooling. In the real world, there is not a proper balance of male/female authority figures.

There are some things women are better suited to and there are some things that men are better suited to. Women are better suited to nurturing careers (as a rule...there are a few exceptions now and then), while men are better suited to careers that require strength (like I said, there are a few exceptions now and then).

- the seige mentality of homeskoolin' (us vs them)

For U.S. homeschoolers, the us vs them mentality comes from having child protective services come into our homes because someone reported that our children were not attending school (even though everyone knows we homeschool) because they're mad at us for something or the like.

Some of us (homeschoolers) have legitimate gripes about the public school system even. Now, bear in mind that I'm talking about the United States, not world-wide. You know my gripes. I've tried working with "professional" educators to guarantee my daughter an excellent education. But, my suggestions get thrown out the window as soon as I'm no longer on the scene. Public school teachers here seem to think that all children should learn the same thing at the same rate the same way. Wrong!

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by ebenz47037
But, the apprentice must be taught how to do what he's doing. Doesn't he? See? For me "teaching" is the umbrella. It includes all that you've mentioned above.

I think a longer explanation is required on why education is the umbrella term and why this is so important to improving the state of homeschooling.

Improving my last definition.............

EDUCATION is an umbrella term to that includes teaching, training, tutoring, mentoring, learning, understanding, growth, apprenticing, lecturing, schooling, pedagogy, androgogy. etc. One talks about a philosophy of education but not a philosophy of teaching.

In schooling at least two people are involved in the educational process educator (teacher - giver & receiver) and learner (pupil - receiver & giver). Understanding of BOTH is essential! Homeschooling seems to focus minimally on the teacher's role and neglect major elements in that of the learner.

In our discussions, when I use the term education I'm talking about the big picture, whereas teaching will be about education within a school system (public, homeschooling, christian, catholic, private, etc)

In this context then a good teacher has at least the following competencies:
- good knowledge of teaching theory
- good knowledge of learning theory
- good reflective practice in the application of both
- good participation in and promotion of life-long learning

This contains enough material to study over several lifetimes!

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".

But, I, like many here on TOL, believe that a bad homeschool education is better than a bad public school education.

Bad education is bad education and should be avoided wherever it is found. Good education is good education and should be prized wherever it is found. If our duiscussion focusses on the elments of good education then we help both the homeschoolers and the Christians involved in other types of education.

Personally, I don't care if I'm "valued in the educational community."

The homeschooling movement will rise or fall (in numbers) depending on its status in the educational community. It is a matter opf PR ...one that I also repeatedly discussed with the head of Christian Community Schools, Rev Robert Frisken. As Christians we must strive to achieve excellence in our work.

If you want to use the "Ain't no-body perfic!" phrase for "professional" educators, you must use it for homeschoolers as well. Your experiences and my experiences seem to have been the same except in reverse order. I've seen both good and bad homeschoolers...but I have met a far higher percentage of public school teachers.

I agree! That is why I think our discussion is valuable to BOTH sides of the issue! ... and also to demonstrate that discussion can be critical and constructive at the same time.

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I think a longer explanation is required on why education is the umbrella term and why this is so important to improving the state of homeschooling.

Improving my last definition.............

EDUCATION is an umbrella term to that includes teaching, training, tutoring, mentoring, learning, understanding, growth, apprenticing, lecturing, schooling, pedagogy, androgogy. etc. One talks about a philosophy of education but not a philosophy of teaching.

In schooling at least two people are involved in the educational process educator (teacher - giver & receiver) and learner (pupil - receiver & giver). Understanding of BOTH is essential! Homeschooling seems to focus minimally on the teacher's role and neglect major elements in that of the learner.

Maybe, in your experience with homeschoolers that's true. But, most homeschooling parents I know will hire someone who is qualified to teach what they are not qualified to teach their children. It's all give and take as far as education goes, whether it's public, private, or homeschool. With the exception of maybe two public school teachers I've met, they all (in California and Indiana anyway) seem to think that they can not learn anything from the children. They're wrong! I have learned a lot from teaching my daughter and then from teaching the students I had in the private school.

In our discussions, when I use the term education I'm talking about the big picture, whereas teaching will be about education within a school system (public, homeschooling, christian, catholic, private, etc)

In this context then a good teacher has at least the following competencies:
- good knowledge of teaching theory
- good knowledge of learning theory
- good reflective practice in the application of both
- good participation in and promotion of life-long learning

This contains enough material to study over several lifetimes!

I'm willing to learn from you, Mark. But, it must be a give-and-take relationship on both sides. You must be willing to learn from me as well. I'm not like the homeschoolers you've described. And, chances are, that you're not like the teachers that I've described.

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".

But, that's just you're opinion of a "good school." When you post it, I will probably "pick it apart" and tell you what I think of it as well.

Bad education is bad education and should be avoided wherever it is found. Good education is good education and should be prized wherever it is found. If our duiscussion focusses on the elments of good education then we help both the homeschoolers and the Christians involved in other types of education.

I do agree with your first statement. But, you need to realize that usually, in the U.S., if a public school education is bad, children don't learn and tend to fall through the cracks. If a homeschool education is bad, the children still tend to learn a little bit just from everyday life. There's a very popular division of homeschooling here, called "unschooling." It's also called "interest-led learning." Pretty much, the children learn from everyday life unless they show an interest in a particular subject. Now, I tend not to follow that method. I do believe that it's necessary to learn the basics. But, I know that some children do learn that way. So, I won't criticize it too badly.

The homeschooling movement will rise or fall (in numbers) depending on its status in the educational community. It is a matter opf PR ...one that I also repeatedly discussed with the head of Christian Community Schools, Rev Robert Frisken. As Christians we must strive to achieve excellence in our work.

I, pretty much, don't care too much about the "homeschooling movement."

I homeschool because no "professional" educator has taken an interest in teaching my daughter the way she needs to be taught. I don't belong to any homeschooling groups. They're good for those who feel they need them. But, I don't happen to feel I need one.

I agree! That is why I think our discussion is valuable to BOTH sides of the issue! ... and also to demonstrate that discussion can be critical and constructive at the same time.

True enough! I know that you will be critical of homeschooling while trying to teach me. I will be doing the same thing.

I don't know what the public school system or the homeschoolers in Australia are like. But, I know what both are like here. Same goes for you.

We have to recognize that what you call proper education may be just what I've been giving my daughter, even without supervision of the school system. I am willing to recognize that Australian public schools may not be as bad as what I've experienced.

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by Mark Tindall

To further help I will later post the "Good School Checklist". Although written in the context of choosing between public schooling and Christian schooling, most of the questions are applicable to homeschooling and further expands what I mean by "good education".

THIS IS IT!!!!!

I have used the following checklist with parents thinking of being involved in Christian schooling and / or homeschooling. Although dated it is still a good guide. If yiou are unsure of the terms ask or do a Google search.

How does your home schooling fare? It would be a beneficial exercise for homeschoolers to write down their answers to each question and critically reflect on them ...... Not to show to the list here ... just for their own personal help ...and to identify the areas that need improvement. (WE ALL ned improvement!) You might also like to give thjis checklist to any public school teachers you know who are Christians. (Make sure you give credit to the author / publisher as I have done!)

***************************************************

Brian V Hill "Choosing The Right School" ( ATCF Books: Sydney:1987) *[NOTE: The ATCF is the Australian Teachers Christian Fellowship which accepts Christians who are teachers in any educational system.]

APPENDIX: THE GOOD SCHOOL pp 147 - 153 [Page references and other parts snipped for easier reading]

A CHECK-LIST

A. Needs-Assessment

A 1 Which particular child's needs are you considering at this point? .

A 2Which of this child's needs are the primary responsibility of the parent?

A 3 In regard to schooling, has the child any special needs - physical, intellectual, emotional, social, or special learning difficulties which will need to be taken into account?

A 4 Has the child revealed any special talents or abilities which ought to be kept in mind?

A 5 Is it important in this child's case to choose a school attended by its close friends?

B. The School - Objectives

B 1 How well does the school's policy statement (or public speeches) reflect the general objective [of education]?

B 2 Does the school see itself as a social community needing rules and areas of freedom like the wider society or does it just talk about subjects and results?

B 3 Does the school spell out the general rules on which it operates (i) as a social organisation? and (ii) as an educational community?

B 4 Does the school appear to have achieved a satisfactory balance between sustaining a supportive community within itself. and effectively representing to the child the pluralistic world we live in?

B 5 Do the values the school says it stands for encourage both the study and the critique of those values themselves? In particular does it anywhere affirm its respect for children as persons. and for their right to have their own opinions?

B 6 Does the school have a policy on multiculturalism, and on the admission of students having regard to race or religion? Do you support it?

B 7 Is the school co-ed or single-sex? Does this, in combination with other nurturing influences, meet this particular child's needs?

B 8 What does the school affirm with respect to its view of the home as an educational agency?

B 9 How does the school define its relation to voluntary groups in the wider community?

B 10 How does the school see its role in relation to local and wider government instrumentalities?

C. The School - Administrative Structures

C 1 Does the school use a widely representative consultative body (such as a school council) to make major, long-term policy decisions?

C 2 Does the school policy statement provide clear indications of the roles and powers of the principal, the staff, consultative committees, and other personnel involved in decision-making and administration?

C 3 What provision is made to involve students in the decision-making structures of the school?

C 4 What opportunities does the school provide for involvement in the life of the school by parents and members of the wider community?

C 5 Do these opportunities include forums in which members of the wider community sponsoring the particular school can participate in a genuine way in the formulation of school policy?

C 6 Is the sheer size of the school big enough to provide an adequately wide educational experience, but small enough to maintain a sense of community?

D. The Curriculum

D 1 Is this school locked in to the traditional literary / _academic
subjects for status reasons, or is it prepared to try out promising
alternative themes for study as well?

D 2 Does the school achieve a good balance between the compulsory core and the voluntary options within the curriculum?

D 3 What relative status does the school attach to the humanities as compared with science-type subjects?

D 4 Does the range of subjects offered in this school appear likely to encourage students to reflect on beliefs and values as well as ways and means?

D 5 In particular, what happens in regard to the teaching of religion?

D 6 Does the school welcome the on-site operation of a voluntary Christian group? Is there one?

D 7 Does the school, in its references to its curriculum, include an
acknowledgment of the importance of informal learning and "extra-curricular" activities, on the premises but outside the framework of formal classroom instruction?

E. The School In Operation

E 1 Does the school have an explicit discipline policy, clearly spelling out the steps to be taken in the case of students who continue to disrupt classroom activity or flout the agreed rules of the school community?

E 2 Does it also have clauses identifying the personal liberties and rights accorded to staff and students? Or is it all "do its"?

E 3 How favourable are the school timetable and school_bus schedules to extra-curricular priorities?

E 4 How frequent is staff turnover in this school?

E 5 What steps are taken to regard students as whole persons, rather than merely as students of separate subjects. and what regular (as opposed to crisis) pastoral care and counselling structures operate in the school?

E 6 What support services does the school provide or is it able to call on for emotionally disturbed or disruptive children?

E 7 What support services does the school provide for children with special learning difficulties. in regard to both the number and type of educational specialists on call, and specific procedures adopted to draw such children aside for special assistance?

E 8 What steps are taken to make students aware of career opportunities and of the working world as it impacts on their own local community?

E 9 How adequate are the physical facilities for your child's health and wide learning?

F. The Classroom In operation

F 1 What does the school profess to be able to achieve in the context of formal classroom curriculum? Is it realistic and ethical?

F 2 Where does the school place its emphasis in teaching methods, in regard to such concepts as team teaching, teaching machines. social learning, individualised instruction, direct teaching, and ability streaming vs. mixed ability groups?

F 3 What can you infer from this about the attitude taken to the nature of children as learners?

F 4 What is the school's policy on class sizes? Does it live up to them?

F 5 What does the school say about its policies of assessment in regard to frequency of testing, whether testing is norm-referenced or criterion-referenced, how often it reports to parents, and what it does about students with low marks?

G. The School - Its Reputation

Official statements made by school administrators are one thing. What actually goes on is another. Do you know any parents, other adults, students or ex_-students, who have had actual experience of die school in operation?

Ask them the following:

G 1 Is the school an enjoyable or anxiety-producing place to attend? Why?

G 2 Is the working climate efficient or time-wasting?

G 3 Are the relations of adults to students affirmative or negative?

G 4 To what degree are the staff members of the school, in their
extra-curricular time. committed to joining in with students in the
extra-curricular expressions of school community?

G 5 Is there parental involvement in the school day and is it generally appreciated?

H. If It Is a Christian school

In addition to the above, some questions which probe potential strengths and weaknesses of this particular class of school are as follows:

H 1 Is the school's admissions policy compatible with the kinds of contacts you believe your child needs most?

H2 Does the curriculum fairly reflect the kind of world the child is living in, or does it exclude or potentially distort information felt to be contrary to the defence of the Christian position?

H 3 In the light of other budget priorities within the family, does the extra financial burden seem reason_able?

H4 What minimum demands will there be on your time as a participating parent? Can these demands, together with the extra demands on your tithe, be justified as good stewardship?

I. Final Thoughts

I 1 Will your child be able to cope socially with the kind of community this school runs?

I 2 Given the choice you now prefer, will the impact it has on your home life be within acceptable limits (i.e. leave enough quality time for regular family inter-action, strengthen rather than erode family discussion on values, etc.)?

I 3 Will the choice that you have made communicate in itself the right scale of values and priorities to your children?

I 4 Do the educational gains associated with the choice of this school justify the likely investment of.

(a) personal time in peripheral activities connected with travel time, working bees. fund-raising. etc.?

(b) available family finances?

I 5 Are you prepared to exercise the degree of parental surveillance and participation in the school which this choice involves?

I 6 Are you prepared to shoulder your responsibilities, as a parent of nurture in the family circle, irrespective of what school you have been led to choose?

********************************

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Okay, Mark. It's going to take me a while to go through this and tell you what I think about it. Parts of it, I agree with. But, there's a lot that I don't agree with because the public schools that I've dealt with don't do what you've put on your list.

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Next on the list....

Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by ebenz47037
There is a lack of quality controls and quality assurance in public schools in the United States nowadays, Mark.

If that is true then it is very sad.

As to any quality controls and/or assurance in my homeschooling, if I come to something that I cannot teach my daughter, I will find someone who can. But, that's not something that I run into very often.

How would you know there is a problem if you do not know how to diagnose it?

So far, my daughter's only wanted to learn one thing that I never had any interest in whatsoever: geology. So, my late husband and I hired a geologist to teach her for a few weeks.

Being an expert in subject matter is no guarrantee that you can educate someone else in that material. The\y are diferent competencies.

I have no problem admitting I'm over-protective of my daughter. But, you have to look at each situation differently.

Exactly! We are talking in generalities but, "at the end of the day" (how I hate that phrase!) it must be suited to the individual person.

Why does there have to be a balance of male/female educators?

Over the entire length schooling it is best to have different role models and not just all male teachers or all female teachers. [Carl Jung is an interesting read in this are concerning his Anima / Animus ... but I digress]

In the real world, there is not a proper balance of male/female authority figures.

There should be! I'm all for feminism.

Women are better suited to nurturing careers (as a rule...there are a few exceptions now and then), while men are better suited to careers that require strength (like I said, there are a few exceptions now and then).

I disagree but note that this opinion strengthens the notion that homeschooling is just about mothering. It is detrimental to the cause of homeschooling.

For U.S. homeschoolers, the us vs them mentality comes from having child protective services come into our homes because someone reported that our children were not attending school (even though everyone knows we homeschool) because they're mad at us for something or the like.

I understand why you would be upset!

Some of us (homeschoolers) have legitimate gripes about the public school system even.

Like I said ALL systems have the good and the bad.

Public school teachers here seem to think that all
children should learn the same thing at the same rate the same way. Wrong!

I hope you are now seeing that that is not ALL teachers. I have not read any article in any contempoary educational journal that would suggest that such action is good educational practice.

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by ebenz47037
With the exception of maybe two public school teachers I've met, they all (in California and Indiana anyway) seem to think that they can not learn anything from the children. They're wrong! I have learned a lot from teaching my daughter and then from teaching the students I had in the private school.

Of course teachers learn from the children they teach. Education is a two way process! By far the best have read on this is the South American Catholic educator Paulo Friere "Pedagogy of the Oppressed". Read it!

I'm willing to learn from you, Mark. But, it must be a give-and-take relationship on both sides. You must be willing to learn from me as well.

We're discussing ... I hope ...If I were in teaching mode it would be quite different. Watch "Dead Poet's Society" for an example of how I teach. (NLP techniques!)

But, that's just you're opinion of a "good school." When you post it, I will probably "pick it apart" and tell you what I think of it as well.

Fine ...except I didn't write it ... I pinched (boorowed?) it.

There's a very popular division of homeschooling here, called "unschooling." It's also called "interest-led learning."

Old hat but deserves a reading. This derives from the Catholic educator Ivan Illich. It is best to start with source materials. I have read the following of his books (the ones related to education are marked with *):

- *Deschooling Society
- *After Deschooling, What?
- *Imprisoned In The Global Clasroom
- Celebration of Awareness
- Tools For Conviviality
- Limits To Medicine
- Energy and Equity
- the Church, Change and Development

Illich is still for excellence in education ... whichj is the main thrust of my argument. How is the best education achieved?

Pretty much, the children learn from everyday life unless they show an interest in a particular subject.

This is take from the educational theory of A S Neil. Of particular importance is his book "Summerhill" though I enjoyed his "Domine Books".

I, pretty much, don't care too much about the "homeschooling movement."

I do as far as it relates to excellence in education. I(t is excellence in education hat all good teachers strive for whatever system of education they are within.

[This could lead to an extensive thread on the philosophy of education ...which is probably not useful at the moment ... but a background in this aea is also a competency for a good teacher ...like a pallette from which to choose.]

Mark Tindall · Sep 17, 2003

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Okay, Mark. It's going to take me a while to go through this and tell you what I think about it.

I know! Look at it as an document with areas from which we can start discussion.

... the public schools that I've dealt with don't do what you've put on your list.

Yep! "There ain't no-one perfick!" ....even me.

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
A CHECK-LIST

A. Needs-Assessment

A 1 Which particular child's needs are you considering at this point? .

A 2Which of this child's needs are the primary responsibility of the parent?

A 3 In regard to schooling, has the child any special needs - physical, intellectual, emotional, social, or special learning difficulties which will need to be taken into account?

A 4 Has the child revealed any special talents or abilities which ought to be kept in mind?

A 5 Is it important in this child's case to choose a school attended by its close friends?

Section A pretty much has been answered in my previous postings in this thread. With the exception of A 5, I've answered them all. As far as that one goes, I think that depends on the child. My daughter makes friends very easily. So, it isn't important to her that she attend school with her friends.

B. The School - Objectives

B 1 How well does the school's policy statement (or public speeches) reflect the general objective [of education]?

B 2 Does the school see itself as a social community needing rules and areas of freedom like the wider society or does it just talk about subjects and results?

B 3 Does the school spell out the general rules on which it operates (i) as a social organisation? and (ii) as an educational community?

B 4 Does the school appear to have achieved a satisfactory balance between sustaining a supportive community within itself. and effectively representing to the child the pluralistic world we live in?

B 5 Do the values the school says it stands for encourage both the study and the critique of those values themselves? In particular does it anywhere affirm its respect for children as persons. and for their right to have their own opinions?

B 6 Does the school have a policy on multiculturalism, and on the admission of students having regard to race or religion? Do you support it?

B 7 Is the school co-ed or single-sex? Does this, in combination with other nurturing influences, meet this particular child's needs?

B 8 What does the school affirm with respect to its view of the home as an educational agency?

B 9 How does the school define its relation to voluntary groups in the wider community?

B 10 How does the school see its role in relation to local and wider government instrumentalities?

B 1 Every school that I've dealt with makes good public comments about what they want to accomplish. But, they very seldom live up to their goals.

As to my own goals for my daughter, I want to make sure that she has the knowledge when she's finished with high school to go on to college. There are requirements for the students set by colleges. In the U.S., colleges tend to say that students must have three years of mathematics, four years of English/grammar, two (or three) years of science, four years of physical education, two years of foreign language, four years of social studies/history, and two years of electives. That's just to get into college. That does not include SAT/ACT scores or entrance exams with the college. My daughter starts high school next year. I plan on going over and above the "call of duty" when it comes to record keeping for her high school transcripts. I want to make sure that there's no way that a perspective college can say that my daughter did not complete any part of her high school education.

B 2 Public schools that I've dealt with tend to set certain rules and guidelines at the beginning of each school year. But, they tend to let certain students get away with certain things because of who their parents are, or some other ridiculous reason.

I set standards that my daughter must follow. The two main ones are that she complete her work on schedule and that she respect my authority. For our "school" to succeed, she must follow those standards.

B 3 Of course, the public schools do that here. They want public support.

I tend not to worry about that. I am not a "social organization."

B 4 Public schools try to do that. But, they are not necessarily succeeding. Students leave public schools not ready to deal with real life here. It's a pity, but it's the truth.

I'm trying to prepare my daughter to deal with real life. Every year, she gets more and more independent. I enjoy watching her grow up. I don't have to meet social issues because I'm not a "social organization."

B 5 Public schools say this, but I've found that if you give them any criticism at all, you're labelled immediately as a crackpot. The public schools here have shown that they don't respect children as persons. Children in the public schools have no rights at all.

My daughter has the right to express her opinion to me about any subject as long as she's respectful about it.

B 6 Not applicable to my homeschooling.

B 7 Not applicable.

B 8 The public schools don't think that the home is a learning agency.

But, obviously, I consider my home a learning agency.

B 9 The public schools here now have "mandatory volunteerism." Kind of an oxymoron if you ask me.

If my daughter chooses to volunteer with an organization, that's her perogative.

B 10 :chuckle: This one's the best one, Mark! Public schools here tend to think of themselves (at least the employees) as extensions of the federal government. If local laws do not agree with federal guidelines, the public schools ignore them.

Personally, I don't want the federal government in my school. I teach my daughter about the constitution, the Congress, and the Supreme Court. I do not have the option of ignoring local laws (county or state). Doesn't bother me in the least. But, the federal government has no place in educating children.

ebenz47037 · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
If that is true then it is very sad.

It's pretty much true.

How would you know there is a problem if you do not know how to diagnose it?

Just because I have a problem explaining to you what I mean doesn't mean that I don't know how to diagnose a problem. I've worked with other homeschooling parents before and had no problems explaining what I mean. I don't know if it's because I'm uncomfortable talking to a "professional" educator about my processes or if it's because we're from different countries that this is hard for me, Mark.

Being an expert in subject matter is no guarrantee that you can educate someone else in that material. The\y are diferent competencies.

But, the expert I chose to teach my daughter did well in teaching her about geology. That's my point.

Exactly! We are talking in generalities but, "at the end of the day" (how I hate that phrase!) it must be suited to the individual person.

Yep!

Over the entire length schooling it is best to have different role models and not just all male teachers or all female teachers. [Carl Jung is an interesting read in this are concerning his Anima / Animus ... but I digress]

That's your opinion. I think that children tend to do better if they attend an all female or all male school if they cannot be homeschooled.

There should be! I'm all for feminism.

I, as a woman, am opposed to feminism. The feminists have made men afraid to be men and have confused enough women into believing that they can do anything men can do. I hate seeing feminine men and masculine women.

I disagree but note that this opinion strengthens the notion that homeschooling is just about mothering. It is detrimental to the cause of homeschooling.

Like I said above, that's your opinion. I didn't say that men cannot teach. I said that women tend to be better.

I hope you are now seeing that that is not ALL teachers. I have not read any article in any contempoary educational journal that would suggest that such action is good educational practice.

That's all right, Mark!

I may convert you to homeschooling advocacy yet. :chuckle:

Mark Tindall · Sep 18, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by ebenz47037

B 1 Every school that I've dealt with makes good public comments about what they want to accomplish. But, they very seldom live up to their goals.

All the more the reason that each Christian in education should strive to deliver the best education they can within the constraints of their particular system. For example (from another thread) A Christian who is a teacher in a public school is not allowed to evangelise his / her students. Beforee you get upset - THINK! If evangelisation were approved for Christians then it would also have to be approved for Satanists, Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, Raelians, Wiccans, UFOlogists, etc etc etc. I think is a wise policy for a public utility.

Students leave public schools not ready to deal with real life here. It's a pity, but it's the truth.

Sadly that is true of many education ssystems. Life skills is not a usual subject area.

Public schools say this, but I've found that if you give them any criticism at all, you're labelled immediately as a crackpot.

Need I quote the abuse I have received from homeschoolers when pointing out their flaws???

"Ain't no-one perfick!"

The trick is in criticising the idea or practice and not the person. Unfortunately some people think you are criticising them anmd not their ideas. likewise , I am not criticising you personally, Nori. I am looking at tyhe flaws in homneschooling. All systems have flaws. Home schooling is not immune fro that. It is the action that is taken after recognising the flaws that is important.

The public schools here have shown that they don't respect children as persons. Children in the public schools have no rights at all.

That is not the case in Austalia.

B 6 Not applicable to my homeschooling.

I disagree. Where does your child socialise with people of other races?

B 7 Not applicable.

I disagree Where does your child socialise with peers of both sexes?

B 8 The public schools don't think that the home is a learning agency.

I disagree. No professional educational journal has ever stated that.

But, obviously, I consider my home a learning agency.

For the record, so do I!

B 9 The public schools here now have "mandatory volunteerism." Kind of an oxymoron if you ask me.

That IS weird!

B 10 :chuckle: This one's the best one, Mark!

I didn't write this list of guidelines ...but yes ...I gather there is much problem in the USA over this issue.

the federal government has no place in educating children.

Click to expand...

I disagree. it has the right to ensure, on behalf of the nation it legally represents, that its citizens have attained a reasonable level of education that is equlally avalable to all its citizens. I woukld think any federal government would be amiss if it it did not impose minimum standards for all education which is going to be accredited in some formal educational setting.

However, this issue is not central to that of good educational practice. It does give a bad impression of homeschooling to professional educators who may assume that there must be something going wrong if homeschoolers want to hide what they are doing from the government. An openess to external inspection (for verification purposes) is always a good policy. I don't see any good reason why it should not apply to homeschooling just like it applies to every other education system. It is called "accountability". All people are accountable to someone. Who are homerschoolers accountable to? (Don't answer "the pupil" ... ALL education is accountable to the student!) Who else?

"You gotta serve somebody!" - Bob Dylan

Click to expand...

Mark Tindall · Sep 18, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Just because I have a problem explaining to you what I mean doesn't mean that I don't know how to diagnose a problem.

I think you explain things quite well. If I don't understand I'll ask for help. That isn't what I meant ...and therefore I haven't explained myself well enough to you. I failed! :doh:

Further example:

Supposing a child presents herself to her mum with a small rash of rased bumps that are itchy. The mother has only experienced such a thing when bitten by the dreaded "Hexham Greys" (huge mosquitoes near our home that are rumoured to be able to fly away with a cow ...or nearly ...maybe ...) The mother has only read or heard from others that a bump that is itchy is the result of a mosquito bite. That is this mother's full knowledge of itchy bumps.

What will be her diagnosis and remediation?

My daughter has been bitten repeatedly by a mosquito. I will place some Stingose on it. (Do have Stingose in the USA??? ... helps relieve bites.) If it gets worse I'll treat her for malaria!

Is either the diagnosis or remediation valid? How do you know????

What if a medical doctor is now called in, examines the child and says "Your child has Chicken Pox!"

Is the mother's diagnosis to be taken over that of the doctor?

Doesn't the mother KNOW HER CHILD BETTER than the doctor???

What if the mother NEVER contacts he doctor? What will be end result for the child? What if the itchy bump is bubonic plague!!!! Would the mother be able to diagnose it from her limited background? What is required for the mother to have adequate diagnosis and remediation for her child???
A) If there is no doctor to be found
B) If there is a doctor nearby

This is a parable of a homeschooler and a professional educator.

Think about it.

I don't know if it's because I'm uncomfortable talking to a "professional" educator about my processes or if it's because we're from different countries that this is hard for me, Mark.

Click to expand...

I promise not to bite your head off! I haven't bitten off a head since ...oh never mind! ... I understand. That is why I stated earlier that part of the problem in the "us vs them" menatlity is fear of the Other. When you realise that the Other is not to be feared ...but might be fearful of you! ...then things change and, like your image, the lamb lays down with the lion.

I also admit that us Aussies are "a weird mob". It's from standing on our heads upside down chasing killer koalas on our kangaroos along the bottom of the world ...trust me ...would you like to buy a used car? ...or the Sydney Harbour Bridge ... for a few quid? Do want fries with that? ...I digress ... :kookoo:

But, the expert I chose to teach my daughter did well in teaching her about geology. That's my point.

Click to expand...

How do you know? (I keep asking this question as it is a matter of both assessment AND evaluation ...which I will eventually get to explaining ...I hope ...sometime later ...a big explanation ios required )

That's your opinion. I think that children tend to do better if they attend an all female or all male school if they cannot be homeschooled.

Click to expand...

There have been studies on what works for what child. In general boys do better in a co-ed school and girls do better in an all girls school. So what do we do???

I, as a woman, am opposed to feminism.

Click to expand...

That's fine. My wife and I are feminists.

Click to expand...

ebenz47037 · Sep 19, 2003

Mark, I was at my mother's house all day today. So, I'll reply to your post tomorrow. I'm too tired right now to do it.

Nathon Detroit · Sep 19, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
That's fine. My wife and I are feminists.

Translation.... Marks wife wears the pants in the family.

Poly · Sep 19, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by ebenz47037

I, as a woman, am opposed to feminism.

Me too!!!

Maybe we should start a feminist movement to oppose the feminist movement. :think:

ebenz47037 · Sep 19, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by Poly
Me too!!!

Maybe we should start a feminist movement to oppose the feminist movement. :think:

Where would we start? :chuckle:

ebenz47037 · Sep 19, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by Knight
Translation.... Marks wife wears the pants in the family.

:chuckle: Be nice, Knight! You don't want to chase away my opponent before we get started. Do you? :chuckle:

Nathon Detroit · Sep 19, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Next on the list....

Originally posted by Poly
Me too!!!

Maybe we should start a feminist movement to oppose the feminist movement. :think:

Skirts vs. Pants.

Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

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