The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

Originally posted by shima
Zakath:
>>Euphemistically speaking, "the long dirt nap."<<

What strikes me about most religious people is their extreme FEAR of dying.

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This is an unfair statement. I've seen just as many atheists out there who are just as scared. For the record, I'm not afraid of death, and I don't believe any Christian should be. That's one of the reason's Christ came to die for us; to defeat death so we would not be afraid of it's captivity anymore. But there are some out there that, tragically, love there life more than God. Makes you wonder if they are truely a Christian....

They are extremely afraid that their existence will come to an end,

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Speaking for myself, I'm not afraid of a non-existence after death; I just find it pointless.

and with it they think that life is meaningless UNLESS there is something out there (naturally unbound by time) that gives meaning to their lives.

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Atheists strip away all of lifes meaning and hope from it's very core, leaving nothing but an empty, useless, pointless, irrelevant life that leads to nothing. To say that we die and that's it means that no one is real. All those that have lived and passed away, their lives are irrelavant; and so is ours. We will cease to exist, therefor meaning and purpose ceases to exist. Our efforts to help humanity mean nothing if they all cease to exist anyways. Our laws are pointless; who do we have to answer to if we die and that's it? There should not be any problem with me wasting some guy if he was going to die anyways. I would be doing him a favor.. No purpose; no morals. No morals; no life.

Such a shame....

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It really is a shame, what atheists do. You guys are like vampires who enjoy nothing more than to suck the very existence and meaning and hope out of life, leaving a cold empty, pointless existence for us to bear... blah...

Originally posted by Z Man
This is an unfair statement. I've seen just as many atheists out there who are just as scared.

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But you Christians are supposed to have a "better way". I've stood at too many bedsides as Christians slip into death sobbing and fighting to believe that they think anything good is coming...

Speaking for myself, I'm not afraid of a non-existence after death; I just find it pointless.

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Well, non-existence is rather pointless. But why would non-existence have a point?

Atheists strip away all of lifes meaning and hope from it's very core... No purpose; no morals. No morals; no life...It really is a shame, what atheists do. You guys are like vampires who enjoy nothing more than to suck the very existence and meaning and hope out of life, leaving a cold empty, pointless existence for us to bear...

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How poetic. How utterly silly.

I have morals, a life, a good wife and four wonderful children. Not a single one of them thanks to any religion. I do what I do because I think it is right. I work to help others, not to suck up to some deity, but because I see their intrinsic worth as fellow humans and I desire to help them. If you cannot deal with the freedom and personal responsibility humanism brings, then cling to your deity, your religious laws, and live as a thrall to your god. As for me? I will live as a free human, not a deity's slave.

Originally posted by Zakath
As for me? I will live as a free human, not a deity's slave.

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Rather be a deity's slave, then a slave to my self; my weaknesses; my sins; my death. You're going to wish you were a sheep when you see the freedom we get after death.... :angel:

Originally posted by Z Man
Rather be a deity's slave, then a slave to my self; my weaknesses; my sins; my death.

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It's a free world, you choose whom you will serve. Serve yourself openly or serve a deity of your own imagining. Either way, the end result is the same...

You're going to wish you were a sheep when you see the freedom we get after death...

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Being a slave, even to a diety, still makes one a slave.

Of course, from my point of view, your argument is moot since I have not yet been presented with any convincing evidence for the existence of anything after death...

Unless you have some convincing evidence you'd like to share... :chuckle:

Originally posted by Zakath
Either way, the end result is the same...

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Not really. I'll be going to heaven, and you'll be going to, ahem, the other place.... unless you believe.

Of course, from my point of view, your argument is moot since I have not yet been presented with any convincing evidence for the existence of anything after death...

Unless you have some convincing evidence you'd like to share... :chuckle:

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If I did (not that I do), it wouldn't change your view or beliefs. There are millions like you today and there were millions like you yesterday, even when Jesus was alive and doing miracles in front of them.

Mr 16:11
And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

Joh 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Joh 6:36
But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

Joh 7:5
For even His brothers did not believe in Him.

Joh 8:45
But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Joh 8:46
Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

Joh 10:25,26
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Joh 10:37, 38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Joh 12:37
But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

Zakath, and any other atheists for that matter,

I ask, what makes you think you would believe if presented with any kind of evidence of God's existence? What makes you different from those who had seen Jesus with their own eyes and those who had witnessed His miracles, yet didn't believe; even His own family, who did not believe Him?

Z man:
>>Atheists strip away all of lifes meaning and hope from it's very core, leaving nothing but an empty, useless, pointless, irrelevant life that leads to nothing. <<

Yes, christians think this and it is wrong. What atheists do is give meaning to their lives THEMSELVES. That meaning does not depend on anything other than their own preference.

>>To say that we die and that's it means that no one is real. All those that have lived and passed away, their lives are irrelavant; and so is ours. <<

Hardly. Perhaps it is meaningless TO YOU, but to me the lives of my friends matter to me. If one dies, I will grieve. If one is happy, then I'm glad. So, to me, my friends are very important in life. And the otehr way around is true as well. I matter to my friends.

When I am about to die, I will look back on my life and determine for myself if it was worth it. I want to make my friends happy, because that is what is important to me. For others, perhaps it is the acquiring of wealth, or power. That is their choise. My choise is simple: friendship, love, happyness, peace. The more people I can share that with, the better.
We will cease to

>>exist, therefor meaning and purpose ceases to exist.<<

Meaning and purpose are concepts created by your MIND.

>>Our efforts to help humanity mean nothing if they all cease to exist anyways.<<

Yes, but for the moment and the near future humanity will NOT cease to exist. As I said before, I want to share love and friendship with all those people willing to receive it. Therefore, our existence is important to me. And the attitude that it is all "meaningless" will definitely NOT help to solve any problems we might have.

>>Our laws are pointless; who do we have to answer to if we die and that's it? <<

They are not. You have to awnser to the judicial system during your life, and ofcourse also to yourself. That is called a "conscience" and looks after your PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>>There should not be any problem with me wasting some guy if he was going to die anyways.<<

Yes, there would be. For one, the guy didn't like it. For another, you broke the law and will be punished. And last, your conscience will protest in horror against your action.

>>I would be doing him a favor.. No purpose; no morals. No morals; no life. <<

Ofcourse, atheists have morals just as christians do. They just have no illusions where those morals come from: their upbringing and experience.

The grand mistake christians make is thinking that without God there are no morals. That is wrong, because morals do not come from God but from yourself.

>>It really is a shame, what atheists do. You guys are like vampires who enjoy nothing more than to suck the very existence and meaning and hope out of life, leaving a cold empty, pointless existence for us to bear.<<

Nah, that is not what atheists do. Atheists simply point out that lifes meaning is one that people themselves give to it. Ofcourse, giving meaning to life means taking responsibility for your own life in trying to attain that meaning. Failure would mean that you only have yourself to blame.

Most christians are unable to face that responsibility and therefore "flee" into the secluded shelter of God. Just like kids who suddenly face a problem and cry for "mommy" to keep them safe. Due to their religion they will NEVER develop the responsibility needed to face life. In the end, they all think it is God's responsibility to give them meaning and morals and goals in life.

Let me tell you this: the illusion of God is created by your FEAR of life's problems.

If you don't have to say it, then why do you keep posting over and over and over...

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Because you keep asking as if you don't already have all the answers. Keep seeking....

But you Christians are supposed to have a "better way". I've stood at too many bedsides as Christians slip into death sobbing and fighting to believe that they think anything good is coming...

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Come on, Zak, I know you understand death better than that! That's your most irritating trait. You make statements with a thread of truth but you never tell the whole truth. And the only reason you get away with it is because this is a written forum.

Originally posted by Z Man
If I did (not that I do), it wouldn't change your view or beliefs. There are millions like you today and there were millions like you yesterday, even when Jesus was alive and doing miracles in front of them. I ask, what makes you think you would believe if presented with any kind of evidence of God's existence? What makes you different from those who had seen Jesus with their own eyes and those who had witnessed His miracles, yet didn't believe; even His own family, who did not believe Him?

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Aside from begging the question of the veracity of you scriptural tall tales, you demonstrate an excellent example of rationalization...

• Believer: Here's my evidence
  
  Non-believer: But your so-called evidence is not believable. It's all based on philosophical word games and unreliable copies of ancient texts that no longer exist. Perhaps you could demonstrate some of the things you claim happened more than a thousand years ago here and now?
  
  Believer: Well no I can't. But that's because I knew you wouldn't believe it anyway because people like you never do...
  
  Non-believer: You mean there were rational individuals who wouldn't be convinced by second and third had stories even in ancient times? Fancy that...

Originally posted by RogerB
Come on, Zak, I know you understand death better than that! That's your most irritating trait. You make statements with a thread of truth but you never tell the whole truth...

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Lots of words, little proof.

For example???

Originally posted by RogerB
Because you keep asking as if you don't already have all the answers. Keep seeking....

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Then perhaps you should step aside and let someone with better apologetics skills take their shot...

"Pride goeth before a fall."

For example???

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Your posts speak for themselves.

Then perhaps you should step aside and let someone with better apologetics skills take their shot...

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Oh, don't worry, someone with much better apologetics skills is already working in your life. :think:

Originally posted by RogerB
Your posts speak for themselves.

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I was asking if, perhaps, one of your posts would provide content suitable for discussion...

But alas, I see you appear unable do so...

Oh, don't worry, someone with much better apologetics skills is already working in your life. :think:

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I'm discussing things with more apologists person-to-person and on more boards than you probably realize.

I'm discussing things with more apologists person-to-person and on more boards than you probably realize.

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Cool. :up:

Part of the "cross" I bear as an atheist.

I'm a target for every Josh McDowell wannabe... But, hey, it's a living.

Originally posted by Zakath
I'm a target for every Josh McDowell wannabe... But, hey, it's a living.

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Who is McDowell?

Look it up on Amazon.com

(Oh, I forgot, you're mad at them because of that problem with your book. :doh: )

Try a search engine if you honestly don't know...

Feel free to go fish, Freak:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Josh+McDowell

I didn't suggest google since he's upset with them because they link to smutty sites...

Originally posted by Zakath
Look it up on Amazon.com

(Oh, I forgot, you're mad at them because of that problem with your book. :doh: )

Try a search engine if you honestly don't know...

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Actually, my book is available via amazon.com, target.com, barnesandnoble.com, borders.com, buyamillion.com, and a whole host of other websites....I'm quite pleased!!! Btw, you can purchase your copy, Zakath, at my website.