First, an apology to GFR7. Then, about growing a TOL-grade thick skin.

GFR, I hope you'll accept my sincere apology for the comment I made about you on the Toxicity thread. It was indeed toxic and unnecessary, and I'm sorry.

Later in the same thread you apologized to me, and I want to thank you for that. I appreciate it very much.




I've been thinking a lot about that thread, (posted by someone new to TOL who's already been called retarded), and how it unfolded, about my part in it, and about other threads and posts here, and the people who post them.

So many times I've seen people say you have to have a thick skin to post here, that if you're too thin-skinned, then TOL isn't the place for you. It almost seems like a point of pride, that if you've grown that thick skin, you've somehow made it. Gotten the TOL badge. Having received my share of insults here, I've managed to grow that thicker skin. And I don't like it much, because it means having a certain callousness I didn't have before. And it means I learned to sometimes give as good as I got and I'm not proud of those times, and in them, I played my own part in what I'm talking about.

I never did like the idea of "truth-smacking." Sure, discussions could and should get vehement, there's nothing wrong with that. There are some big areas of contention. But why do Christians think it's okay to say the things that are said here under the pretense of furthering a more righteous, Godly way? There's nothing righteous or Christian or Godly in calling people faggots or retards or Christ-hating pigs or whores.

If you're sure that what you believe is correct and true, you should be able to defend it against all comers, and do it in a way that draws people to Christianity, rather than repels them. TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

annabenedetti said:

There's nothing righteous or Christian or Godly in calling people faggots or retards or Christ-hating pigs or whores.

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do you accept that there are in this world

faggots
retards
and
Christ-hating pigs and whores?



'cause if you don't, all your whining about how unrighteous it is ain't worth squat :idunno:

annabenedetti said:

GFR, I hope you'll accept my sincere apology for the comment I made about you on the Toxicity thread. It was indeed toxic and unnecessary, and I'm sorry.

Later in the same thread you apologized to me, and I want to thank you for that. I appreciate it very much.

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I knew it was only a matter of time before the forces of evil set their petty differences aside and came together to fight us homophobic bigoted Christians.

Hopefully GFR7 will come back and quit pretending to be a conservative and show his true rainbow colors like you do anna.

aCultureWarrior said:

I knew it was only a matter of time before the forces of evil set their petty differences aside and came together to fight us homophobic bigoted Christians.

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Right. On. Cue.

Rusha said:

Right. On. Cue.

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I want you to know that I've always appreciated you and anna for your honesty when it comes to defending perversion. Hopefully GFR7 (if he returns) will be honest in his defense of perversion as well Sandy.

aCultureWarrior said:

I want you to know that I've always appreciated you and anna for your honesty

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Oh that's sweet. You're welcome.

annabenedetti said:

I've been thinking a lot about that thread, (posted by someone new to TOL who's already been called retarded), and how it unfolded, about my part in it, and about other threads and posts here, and the people who post them.

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great post anna

this must be one of your very best
and
I am not surprised

I know you take this all very seriously
maybe sometimes too seriously

you do care
and
everyone can see that

annabenedetti said:

GFR, I hope you'll accept my sincere apology for the comment I made about you on the Toxicity thread. It was indeed toxic and unnecessary, and I'm sorry.

Later in the same thread you apologized to me, and I want to thank you for that. I appreciate it very much.

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:BRAVO:

I've been thinking a lot about that thread, (posted by someone new to TOL who's already been called retarded), and how it unfolded, about my part in it, and about other threads and posts here, and the people who post them.

So many times I've seen people say you have to have a thick skin to post here, that if you're too thin-skinned, then TOL isn't the place for you. It almost seems like a point of pride, that if you've grown that thick skin, you've somehow made it. Gotten the TOL badge. Having received my share of insults here, I've managed to grow that thicker skin. And I don't like it much, because it means having a certain callousness I didn't have before. And it means I learned to sometimes give as good as I got and I'm not proud of those times, and in them, I played my own part in what I'm talking about.

I never did like the idea of "truth-smacking." Sure, discussions could and should get vehement, there's nothing wrong with that. There are some big areas of contention. But why do Christians think it's okay to say the things that are said here under the pretense of furthering a more righteous, Godly way? There's nothing righteous or Christian or Godly in calling people faggots or retards or Christ-hating pigs or whores.

If you're sure that what you believe is correct and true, you should be able to defend it against all comers, and do it in a way that draws people to Christianity, rather than repels them.

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I think that's about as well summed a position as could be had in opposition to hostility on a personal level over differences on an ideological one. Terrific job.

TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

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And here I think you're profoundly wrong. One of the more startling things I noted about internet life, a thing I knew nothing about until happening across TOL then subsequently looking about to get a wider feel, is that it draws concentrations of certain types of people of sorts who aren't in my reasonably well traveled experience indicative of anything like a norm for nearly any position held. Many of those are aggressive, ardent personalities.

I don't find much in my experience of TOL that corresponds with my general impression of Christianity or would have even when I was dismissive of the premise. That isn't a crack at TOL, only a note that the number of assertive and angry voices here is very different from my impression of the larger part of our faith while the lesser, more often hopeful and helpful ambassadors of grace are too often under represented. The mild, settled and content to serve quietly are barely found at all.

In fact, one of the reasons I suspect I didn't end up an aggressive, hostile atheist for all those years, personal inclination aside, was that no matter where I traveled I was consistently exposed to genuinely caring, decent people of a quieter and as assured faith, often working for the immediate benefit of others in their community with no fanfare or expectation of personal reward. It impressed upon me a respect for people who appeared dedicated to a course I could admire, even if and as I found their premise profoundly, mistakenly optimistic and wrong headed.

There have always been people who for the right reasons do the wrong things. And there have always been people who use the appearance of the good as a means to personal empowerment over others. There have always been hypocrites. That some of those are found in any faith or camp should neither dissuade nor jade us in a determination to love God and follow Him, nor should they color our expectations of our brothers and sisters. We are ultimately responsible for how we bear witness to the unearned grace we receive and we are ultimately, God willing, ambassadors of and from that gratitude.

I think we have to be mindful of our own capacity for error and malice and envy and hubris and when we see those similarly encumbered acting upon one of them in moment of weakness, willful or not, find the same compassion we hope will be visited upon us in our own failings and hold out the optimism for them and for ourselves that only grace can be the foundation for. The rest is a work in progress, examining and furthering our walk in appreciation for the real work that was done for us and is complete.

annabenedetti said:

TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

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Town Heretic said:

And here I think you're profoundly wrong.

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and here I think you're deceptively right

tol does not represent the christian world for many reasons
christians by and large are not mad
nor are they calvinists
two very dangerous beliefs
but
we are a christian nation that allows abortion
we reelected obama who is okay with killing a baby that survives abortion
catholics always end up supporting those who protect the legality of abortion

what goes on at tol should bother you
but
I must admit
I see more hate at tol than I do in the real world

Anna, well said (as always). I think a lot of what you've experienced here especially (and what many of us have gone through) is the anonymity of the Internet giving certain cretins the freedom to say what they really think and wouldn't dare to utter out loud in the real world.

Granite said:

Anna, well said (as always). I think a lot of what you've experienced here especially (and what many of us have gone through) is the anonymity of the Internet giving certain cretins the freedom to say what they really think and wouldn't dare to utter out loud in the real world.

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I am exactly the same on here as i am offline. You?

Angel4Truth said:

I am exactly the same on here as i am offline. You?

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No. In real life I use profanity.

And just because we happen to be more or less ourselves here doesn't mean that's the story with everyone else. Frankly, I doubt it. The Internet provides terrible people the ability to say and do things they can't or won't do in real life.

Granite said:

No. In real life I use profanity.

And just because we happen to be more or less ourselves here doesn't mean that's the story with everyone else. Frankly, I doubt it. The Internet provides terrible people the ability to say and do things they can't or won't do in real life.

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I don't doubt that, but after a couple years talking to the same people, can't you kinda tell who is genuine and who isn't, seriously?

Angel4Truth said:

I don't doubt that, but after a couple years talking to the same people, can't you kinda tell who is genuine and who isn't, seriously?

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Eh, I suppose. Although I think Anna's point is that the very people who upset her, and prove distressing to most of the rest of us, are indeed genuine: genuinely awful. Whether or not that speaks to the majority of Christians is pretty much impossible to say, but I can see why she's unnerved. TOL allows the mask to come off, so to speak.

Granite said:

Eh, I suppose. Although I think Anna's point is that the very people who upset her, and prove distressing to most of the rest of us, are indeed genuine: genuinely awful. Whether or not that speaks to the majority of Christians is pretty much impossible to say, but I can see why she's unnerved. TOL allows the mask to come off, so to speak.

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What mask, you mean full on veiw of the human heart that is in need of a Savior?

If anything the human condition exposed as what it really is in the flesh, shows me all the more why we needed one and points to Him in my mind instead of away.

Anyone who wants to see the example to follow need look at Him and not others who needed Him too. We can all find something wrong with everyone when we try to, and everyone can always find something wrong with us. Thats an all way street.

What mask, you mean full on veiw of the human heart that is in need of a Savior?

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Umm...nope. Not. At. All.

If anything the human condition exposed as what it really is in the flesh, shows me all the more why we needed one and points to Him in my mind instead of away.

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Then you need a long solid sit down with a few of your brethren. So-called Christians are consistently the most savage, unpleasant, and wretched individuals here. If this is the witness of your faith I absolutely want no part of it (and am more convinced than ever that I made the right decision). This goes back to Anna's post: The realization that TOL's most disturbed members are Christians. What's worse is her suspicion that this speaks to Christianity as a whole.

That a Christian's true, ugly nature is hidden behind a mask of righteousness that the Internet promptly exposes kind of makes for an unsettling picture, wouldn't ya say?

Granite said:

Umm...nope. Not. At. All.



Then you need a long solid sit down with a few of your brethren. So-called Christians are consistently the most savage, unpleasant, and wretched individuals here. If this is the witness of your faith I absolutely want no part of it (and am more convinced than ever that I made the right decision). This goes back to Anna's post: The realization that TOL's most disturbed members are Christians.

But you guys really, really hate hearing that.

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You mean consistently human. I know of many disturbed atheists also, Jim Jones was one and i dont blame you for everything he did now do i?

We are each accountable for ourselves. Im no more responsible for another human beings thoughts and actions than you are.

If i went and killed 100 people in your name, would it be your fault?

You mean consistently human. I know of many disturbed atheists also, Jim Jones was one

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Two things: No, and no. Let's stick to TOL, at the very least, and not go completely off the rails.

Yeeeeeeeeeeesh.

You're not really addressing the issue Anna raised. You guys consistently hate objections and concerns like hers. This isn't the first time there's been such a thread on TOL, won't be the last, and it'll go like this:

a) utter denial by Christians or an attempt to change the subject (your tactic)
b) soft pedaling by nice Christians (Town Heretic's gambit)
c) savage attacks that prove Anna's point (any second now)
d) a wistful follow up from the thread's creator before he/she abandons thread
e) a truthsmacker whining to the mods
f) the thread being closed

Maybe I'll be surprised this time.

Granite said:

Two things: No, and no. Let's stick to TOL, at the very least, and not go completely off the rails.

Yeeeeeeeeeeesh.

You're not really addressing the issue Anna raised. You guys consistently hate objections and concerns like hers. This isn't the first time there's been sucha thread on TOL, won't be the last, and it'll go like this:

a) utter denial by Christians or an attempt to change the subject (your tactic)
b) soft pedaling by nice Christians (Town Heretic's gambit)
c) savage attacks that prove Anna's point (any second now)
d) a wistful follow up from the thread's creator before he/she abandons thread
e) a truthsmacker whining to the mods
f) the thread being closed

Maybe I'll be surprised this time.

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Please post even one of my posts where i have abused anna in any way since ive been on TOL. Good luck with that.

Angel4Truth said:

Please post even one of my posts where i have abused anna in any way since ive been on TOL. Good luck with that.

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And as usual you've just tried to make this all about you. Narcissus, heal thyself.:yawn: