Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

God's Truth said:

If we have food that ENDURES to eternal life, then when is the death?

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Don't you know what the Bible says? If we have eternal life, then we don't have death, even if we die. We are resurrected, and then we have eternal life. Those that do not have eternal life will die. After they are resurrected, since they do not have eternal life, they will die again. The second death. That is death. Being dead.

Words have meanings. Words mean things. Life and death are opposites. If you are alive, then you aren't dead. If you are dead, then you aren't alive. If you have eternal life, you will be alive forever. If you don't have eternal life, you will eventually die. That means you won't be alive.

Don't forget about the resurrection.

God's Truth said:

That is your worthless opinion of me. You are a false witness and a slanderer.

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Your doctrine is a slander on God, can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If you take it personal then maybe that is a sign your emotions dictate your thought process.

Timotheos said:

Don't you know what the Bible says?

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Are you a hypocrite? Why did you tell me not to make such comments and then you continue to make such comments?

Timotheos said:

If we have eternal life, then we don't have death, even if we die. We are resurrected, and then we have eternal life. Those that do not have eternal life will die. After they are resurrected, since they do not have eternal life, they will die again. The second death. That is death. Being dead.

Words have meanings. Words mean things. Life and death are opposites. If you are alive, then you aren't dead. If you are dead, then you aren't alive. If you have eternal life, you will be alive forever. If you don't have eternal life, you will eventually die. That means you won't be alive.

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You did NOT answer my question.
Answer my question.

Timotheos said:

Don't forget about the resurrection.

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The resurrection is when we have our physical bodies REDEEMED.

Flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives life to spirit. Flesh dies, but the spirits of those who live to Jesus are alive with real life that does not die.

God's Truth said:

God says do not murder.

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The point is just as logical as your disgusting doctrine, even a mad dog gets better treatment than that god with little truth.

Zeke said:

Your doctrine is a slander on God, can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If you take it personal then maybe that is a sign your emotions dictate your thought process.

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Listen how you speak. You speak ugliness and lies. I want nothing you teach. Your posts are worthless garbage. You slander everything around you. You slander me, and more importantly, you slander God.

God's Truth said:

You did NOT answer my question.
Answer my question.

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I did answer your question.

GT said:

If we have food that ENDURES to eternal life, then when is the death?

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Tim said:

If we have eternal life, then we don't have death, even if we die. We are resurrected, and then we have eternal life. Those that do not have eternal life will die. After they are resurrected, since they do not have eternal life, they will die again. The second death. That is death. Being dead.

Words have meanings. Words mean things. Life and death are opposites. If you are alive, then you aren't dead. If you are dead, then you aren't alive. If you have eternal life, you will be alive forever. If you don't have eternal life, you will eventually die. That means you won't be alive.

Don't forget about the resurrection.

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The resurrection is when the dead are raised to life. Words have meanings.

True study.............

True study.............

God's Truth said:

Just start putting to practice Jesus’ teachings. He will save you and open your eyes to understand the scriptures.

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Nature has equipped me rather adequately with faculties to discern, understand and interpret things. Just what Jesus taught regarding ECT is the subject here, however even that is fraught with meaning-variables besides other passages from the Bible that are compounded towards the issue. The subject has been exhausted really, unless particular points have been re-evaluated and considered.

Can you refrain from blaspheming God? The wrath of God is coming.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

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I've not blasphemed 'God' at all, but respected his love, mercy and real justice. Considering principles that 'God' must abide by since he is the 'God' of principle, their very source...is fundamental here. The two of justice and mercy are foundational here, and 'God' must by definition of his character uphold both thru love and wisdom. Sadism, cruelty, insanity are not the methods of 'God'.

I tell you, if you chose to obey Jesus’ teachings, you would find out the truth.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obeys them.

John 14:21 NET He who has my commandments and obeys them--he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly reveal myself to him."

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What Jesus is speaking of here is the essence of his teachings based in love, ethical living, spiritual communion. I don't see any ECT in such a context.

Our spirits do not die. So then, tell me how the spirits of the evil are going to die in the lake of fire.

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This is only from an 'annihilationist' point of view, where the 'second death' is a final/eternal distintegration of that individual life stream. That's only one alternative. This would be for souls that make a final and eternal choice (having exhausted all helps) for de-struction, whereby they truly are 'expunged' from existence as a functioning entity (wiped out, made extinct, dissolved). I've said before that this may have certain ontological/metaphysical difficulties as far as the nature of the soul is concerned by those school that hold spirit-souls are more or less 'immortal' (eternal entities).

If we look at 'sin' or 'iniquity' in its most pure essence, if it results in death, it equates to a 'negation' or 'absence' of the life-principle. If the soul that sins 'dies',....it is the description of this 'death' that is being debated here. The annihilist view holds that the second death is a final consummation of death, a total disintegration. In this, the wholly wicked who bear the full fruit of their iniquity, truly perish.

There is no such scripture that says that.

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Scripture does not always give a perfect or complete description of what 'death' is, or its process (metaphysically speaking), beyond some literal face-value, as contrasted to 'life'. Both 'life' and 'death' are relative to one another, and subject to translation.

Again, you do not believe what is written; and, you will not have Jesus revealed to you unless obey what is written.

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What is written is subject to 'interpretation', and translated differently by minds of different dispositions and aptitudes. Some views are better informed than others, and some trails might end in an honest "I don't know"...but a true student will stay open to research matters.




pj

enlighten yourself......

enlighten yourself......

MichaelCadry said:

Originally Posted by freelight View Post

Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

~*~*~

Dear freelight,

Do you know you are calling Our Lord senseless and insane here? It's only because you don't want to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), but I'm sorry, it exists! And if God deems it so, then that is completely up to Him. I can't believe you said it. You are treading on thin ice here.

Praise God!!

Michael

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ECT portal page here (includes my earlier posts here).

I have never called 'God' or any of his true representatives 'insane', but I will call ECT that because it is just that. 'God' who is Infinite LOVE, rules by a divine wisdom full of both justice and mercy, and his will is eternal, sending out his light and rain on all beings, including all in his eternal mercies and divine providence.

"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) Is NOT Found In The Greek New Testament.



pj

God's Truth said:

Listen how you speak. You speak ugliness and lies. I want nothing you teach. Your posts are worthless garbage. You slander everything around you. You slander me, and more importantly, you slander God.

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Like freelight has said there isn't much more to say that hasn't already
been, so I hope you come to understand that your wrong on this, because you are.

1 John 4:18.

reconsidering terms......

reconsidering terms......

bybee said:

Yes indeed! Either life or death. Eternal torture is eternal life.
And eternal torture is not in keeping with the attributes of our loving God.

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Hi bybee,

The merry go round continues here because all have their own meanings assigned to terms and their various meanings.

One having the life of God (just by being) and sharing in the divine nature (immortality) of 'God', naturally will endure and survive beyond this life ever progressing as that divine principle and will within is acting in accord with its nature. Here the soul survives by its own constitution and those faculties and inspirations of 'God' within and without.

A soul that engages in 'sin' or succumbs to iniquity naturally tends towards death, negation, devolution, suffering, incurring the penalties of the law, thru 'transgression'. The law of compensation (call it 'karma'; 'law of justice'; 'law of cause/effect', etc.) is perfect in its execution, and only modified or mediated by the higher law of love/grace,...but the soul always himself must atone for his own sins or 'repent' as to what falls within his own power to do, while grace avails to do all else.


pj

Dear Timotheus,

I am thinking God's Truth is referring to "and the rest of the dead did not live AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled." See Rev. 20:3.

In God's Love,

Michael

Dear jamie,

You might note that it is written, death and hell shall give up those who are in them and they shall be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20:13). And those who were not found in the book were cast into the lake of fire. So even the dead shall be awakened and burn forever, if they are not found in the book of Life from God. Don't think that just because you die, you're automatically exempt from burning in the lake of fire.

MichaelCadry said:

You might note that it is written, death and hell shall give up those who are in them and they shall be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20:13).

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We are all judged according to our works, you know that. The Last Day is no different. Maybe we need to talk about the resurrections.

Dear Jamie,

There is this coming resurrection when Jesus returns. The 2nd death/last resurrection will be the final one on earth, which won't happen until at least over 1,000 years from now.

Bradley D said:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).

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Is capital punishment eternal?

Is death just a moment in time? or a continuing state?

MichaelCadry said:

There is this coming resurrection when Jesus returns. The 2nd death/last resurrection will be the final one on earth, which won't happen until at least over 1,000 years from now.

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There are two salvific resurrections. There is the resurrection at the coming of Christ.


And then after the millennium is the second resurrection.


The Book of Life is open to those in the second resurrection based on their acceptance of Christ's salvation. Only those who reject Christ will suffer a second death.

oatmeal said:

Is capital punishment eternal?

Is death just a moment in time? or a continuing state?

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I believe that life and death are relative to time and that time is relative to space and matter.

Posted from the TOL App!

jamie said:

We are all judged according to our works, you know that. The Last Day is no different. Maybe we need to talk about the resurrections.

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Faith vs unbelief, receiving or rejecting the person and work of Christ determines eternal destiny, not works. Atheists can do good works, while theists may do none. God's standard is perfection and nothing can be added to the shed blood of Christ. Our works are like filthy rags. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. Denying this displays rejection of the gospel, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, etc.

Works determine rewards/loss of rewards for the believer (stewardship; Bema Seat of Christ judgment). Works are the fruit of the root of faith.

Unbeliever's sins and works will condemn them at the GWT.

godrulz said:

Unbeliever's sins and works will condemn them at the GWT.

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Ok, so you don't believe the penalty for sin is death. You are not alone.

oly:

godrulz said:

Faith vs unbelief, receiving or rejecting the person and work of Christ determines eternal destiny, not works. Atheists can do good works, while theists may do none. God's standard is perfection and nothing can be added to the shed blood of Christ. Our works are like filthy rags. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. Denying this displays rejection of the gospel, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, etc.

Works determine rewards/loss of rewards for the believer (stewardship; Bema Seat of Christ judgment). Works are the fruit of the root of faith.

Unbeliever's sins and works will condemn them at the GWT.

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Dear Godrulz,

Good works can include believing in Jesus, believing in God's commandments, and helping your fellow man. They do not have to be 'work' like you are thinking. That's where the key is. Spreading the scriptures is good works. Speaking a good word to your neighbor in times of uncertainty is a good work also. But yes, I agree with you, receiving the Messiah, Jesus as the Son of God is one of the most important. Loving God with all thy heart, soul and mind is another. God's Blessings For You!!

Michael