ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

[Cntrysner]

I don't understand what else to say to express the fact that you are conflating two completely seperate issues.

And this is an huge overstatement anyway! You don't die in the sense that you no longer exist! When you say "the more I die", what you do mean? Die to what?

That's a real question! I know the biblical answer but I want to know what your answer is. I can't see how you could even have an answer. What do those words mean when you say them?


I quoted you the scripture!

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

Has anyone, other than me, ever said those words to you before? They aren't my words, their Paul's but I'm curious to know what you think they mean.


Surrender to what?

Be specific.

What, in your view, does this "surrender" look like in your daily life.

Again, I know the biblical answer to these questions but I suspect that you do not. That is to say, that I don't think that you've ever thought through just what you mean when you repeat these very common Christian clichés.


Do you not see the contradiction in that sentence which I've highlighted?

Is it wrong to "try to be true to His promise"?

Isn't the fact that you're trying, proof that you can at least do that - try?


I'll tell you this. You will fail.

You will fail - I guarantee it! God will see to it that you fail!

You know why? Because you're trying. You're trying to accomplish something that only God can do and that He has already done!

As I read your post, I can feel the guilt that is overwhelming your every thought. This tells me that you are living the Christian life in your flesh. Your entire identity is all wrapped up in your flesh. When you look at you, you don't see Christ, as God does, you see sin, dispare, distruction and death and, every day, you scare yourself back into the outstretched arms of Jesus begging Him to forgive you again. WHICH HE DOES NOT DO!!!!

Now, hopefully, those last five words were rather jaring. They were intended to be.

Jesus does not forgive sins twice or three times or a dozen times or a million times. He forgives sins once. He declares you righteous once. He baptizes you into the Body of Christ once. He doesn't do it once a day or once a week or once a month, He does it once - period!

You can ask him to forgive you over and over and over again but all He's going to do is roll His eyes in loving frustration and tell you that there is no longer anything to forgive! You are NOT UNDER THE LAW and where there is no law, sin is not imputed. If sin is not imputed to you then what is there to forgive? NOTHING! Not because you don't do things you shouldn't but because Christ has already died for those sins and you have been baptized by the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead into His Body and are now hidden in Him. And if you died in Him then you have also been raise with Him! Your identity is now Christ! It is no longer you who lives but Christ lives His life through you by faith. The question that remains is not whether you're a sinner, you are not because He is not. The question then is only whether you believe it!

Do you?


That very same one is He in whom you are now identified and in whom you now rest. Rest - not try - not struggle - REST.


Awesome!

So, now that we've gone into some depth concerning our sin nature and the believer's idenity in Christ, let's look at an entirely different issue and ask the question, can people do anything that can rightly be considered a righteous act?

Is it possible for anyone to do anything right or is every single act that anyone ever performs, no matter what it is or why they did it, only ever evil?

Before answering please think about what Paul is instructing us to do in Galatians 6:4 and then read through Ezekiel 18 and then come and tell me what your answer is.


I make no effort to strive to be that which I already am in Him. (Gal. 2:20; Phil. 3:12)


Resting in Him,
Clete

You seem to have anger issues which I am trying to get to the reason why. PM me if you please.
What are you holding back for self, is it rewards? I was in your place, I feel your feelings because of your words.

Those without the law are a law into themselves.

You said God will see that I fail, because I exalt His Son above myself? How does that make any sense at all?

I die daily, no, I die moment by moment when I compare myself to Christ. How do I die you ask, I die to myself. I do feel guilt as appointed head of my family but I am exalted in Christ to the right hand of the Father because I accept my guilt. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It is a very peaceful situation for me when it is all Christ. I can't express the gratitude I feel for His sacrifice enough as a benefactor of a son in Christ. I don't think much on my rewards, I'm sealed, concerning salvation I have in Him. He offers much more to me than myself eternally, so I will keep myself in proper respect because He owns all that I want and he knows what I need even more than I do.

I don't repent or ask for forgiveness. I stand convicted in my salvation moment by moment. I have an intercessor for my sin who is Christ. I am exalted, and sealed, I set at the right hand of God this very minute in Christ. I am an inheritor of all creation down to it's very molecules but want is it that I even know all things. The most for me is that the Father will wipe away all my tears and I die daily now because it's not all about me and never truly was, It's my family and more, it was what I could not see until He showed it to me.

 

[Clete]

You seem to have anger issues which I am trying to get to the reason why. PM me if you please.

I'm not angry.

If I were angry, there's no way you would have needed to use the word "seem" in that sentence.

If straight talk is turned into anger in your mind, then that's your issue, not mine.

What are you holding back for self, is it rewards? I was in your place, I feel your feelings because of your words.

Okay, that's it!

I've tried. I'm done.

This site wastes more of my time than anything else I do! What am I doing here? What sort of insanity is involved in trying to have a conversation with people who are stubbornly stupid?

I'm out!

Don't bother responding. I will not read it.


Interpret this as anger if you like!
Good bye.

:wave2:

 

[Gary K]

What post?

You quoted me speaking to gt. I hadn't even spoken about the op.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

You're correct. I'm sorry. I read a post and mistakenly attributed it to you. Can't tell you why I made that mistake because I don't know why I did. My bad.

 

[popsthebuilder1]

You're correct. I'm sorry. I read a post and mistakenly attributed it to you. Can't tell you why I made that mistake because I don't know why I did. My bad.

No problem. I'm glad you caught it.

peace

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Clete]

Good things that people are capable of doing....

• Love God
• Love your neighbor
• Provide for your family
• Protect your family
• Raise your children to fear God
• Be generous to those in need
• Rebuke one who does evil
• Dispise muderers, adulterers, rapists, child molester and sodomites.
• Resist the devil
• Read God's word.
• Ask God for wisdom
• Repent of sin
• Beleive that God became a man, died for your sin and raised from the dead
• Tell others that God became a man, died for their sin and rose from the dead

That's a rather short list. There are thousands of good things that people, both believers and unbelievers alike, do every single day.

Clete

 

[Lon]

If this was meant for me, here's a list of texts to look at that fit far far better with the context of the advice to the church of Laodicea. The ones you point out point to gold being heaven. I ask, huh? The context of the passage ties gold and white raiment together so any explanation of the two has to be spiritual for the raiment of Christ, as you pointed out, points to our justification and the robe of righteousness Christ offers us.

The texts are not in logical order, but in the order they appear in the Bible. You'll have to study the relationship between them and the advice to Laodicea for yourself. I think that with some contemplation you will see the connection.

Job 33:10
Isaiah 13:12
Lamentations 4:1
Ezekiel 16:8-17
Zechariah 13:7
Malachi 3:2
1Peter 1:7

It wasn't to you in particular, however context IS Isaiah.

The context: You dirty a rag, it needs to be washed.

 

[God's Truth]

The dirty rag needs to be thrown away.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


The blood offerings the Jews had to do were as dirty bloody rags because they were not really sorry for their sins.

 

[God's Truth]

The Jews had to do the righteous act of the purification works to atone for their sins.

The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not do the purification works which included blood of animals.

God gave the blood of animals to atone for people's sins:

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not get circumcised in the flesh and do the other purification works of the law:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.

Circumcision in the flesh was the sign that one could go to the temple to offer the blood of animals.

God did not like it that the Jews could do the purification works, which included blood sacrifices, but not really be sorry for their sins.

The Jews would do the purification works with animal sacrifices, but they didn't mean it.

Isaiah 1 explains why God did not like their sacrifices, and Psalm 51 explains what would make God like the sacrifices.

These scriptures also tell us what would cause God to like the sacrifices:

Psalm 20:3 May He remember all your gifts and look favorably on your burnt offerings. Selah

Psalm 66:13 I will enter Your house with burnt offerings; I will fulfill my vows to you--

 

[God's Truth]

Psalm 51
For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.
1Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
5Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
7Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.
10Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
13Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
so that sinners will turn back to you.
14Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
you who are God my Savior,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
15Open my lips, Lord,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.
18May it please you to prosper Zion,
to build up the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then you will delight in the sacrifices of the righteous,
in burnt offerings offered whole;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.


There was no sacrifice for adultery and murder, or David would have brought it.
David is an example of how we have to repent of our sins to be forgiven.
Notice that David says he gives offerings that God would delight in after he repents and is forgiven and washed clean. David's plea for forgiveness and being cleansed of his sins is prophetic of what we would all have through Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

God made the old law because the people were so sinful.

The old law with the purification works was a teaching tool about what was coming, salvation through Jesus.

The old law with the purification works was a shadow of Jesus who was coming.

God hated the righteous acts of offerings for sin that the Jews did because they sinned and did not stop sinning.

God spoke of a New Covenant He would make one day with the Jews and all people.

The old law was NOT based on faith.

A person could sin, give a sin offering and still be called a child of God and be near God's Spirit.

God made the New Covenant that would be based on faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;

Faith makes the difference because it is a heart condition of repenting of sin and having faith that the Spirit of God washes those sins away.

 

[Gary K]

It wasn't to you in particular, however context IS Isaiah.

The context: You dirty a rag, it needs to be washed.

No, the context is not Isaiah. It is Revelation 3. The white raiment is Christ's imputed righteousness for without it our sinfulness is fully exposed and we are poor, blind, miserable and naked. Since the gold and the white raiment are mentioned in the same sentence they are related spiritual concepts. Paul says in 1Corinthians 1:30 that Jesus is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

Look at the common theme running through the verses I gave you.

Isaiah 13: [SIZE=+1]11[/SIZE] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[SIZE=+1]12[/SIZE]I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Job 23: [SIZE=+1]10[/SIZE] But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.^*n2

Ezekiel 16: [SIZE=+1]8[/SIZE] Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
[SIZE=+1]9[/SIZE] Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.^*n6
[SIZE=+1]10[/SIZE] I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
[SIZE=+1]11[/SIZE] I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
[SIZE=+1]12[/SIZE] And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.^*n7
[SIZE=+1]13[/SIZE] Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
[SIZE=+1]14[/SIZE] And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
[SIZE=+1]15[/SIZE] ¶But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
[SIZE=+1]16[/SIZE] And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
[SIZE=+1]17[/SIZE] Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,^*n8

Lamentations 4:
[SIZE=+1]1[/SIZE]How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
[SIZE=+1]2[/SIZE] The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

Zechariah 13: [SIZE=+1]7[/SIZE] ¶Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
[SIZE=+1]8[/SIZE] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
[SIZE=+1]9[/SIZE] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lordis my God.

Malachi 3:[SIZE=+1]2[/SIZE] But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

1Peter 1:[SIZE=+1]5[/SIZE] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[SIZE=+1]6[/SIZE] Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
[SIZE=+1]7[/SIZE] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[SIZE=+1]19[/SIZE] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Isaiah 55: [SIZE=+1]1[/SIZE] Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
[SIZE=+1]2[/SIZE] Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.^*n1
[SIZE=+1]3[/SIZE] Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

There is a common theme running through each of these passages of scripture, and that common theme is gold related to righteousness and how it is God that gives it and how we human beings tarnish it with our rebellion against God in which we ignore His commands. These verses all cover one spiritual topic. Gold refined in the fire, and that fire is temptation and persecution. And Jesus offers us the refined gold that He made out of Himself in living a sinless life. We can buy it without money and without price. All it costs us is everything we that we are. We have to give up on self and just trust and obey God. Let Him fashion who we are.

We can't even begin to sort out the tangle of our sinfulness, but God can. He's the only one that knows us well enough to know how sin has transformed us away from the person He created us to be, and what real righteousness really is. And He is the only one that is capable of recreating us back into His image. That's why Jesus is made unto wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

 

[Lon]

No, the context is not Isaiah. It is Revelation 3. The white raiment is Christ's imputed righteousness for without it our sinfulness is fully exposed and we are poor, blind, miserable and naked. Since the gold and the white raiment are mentioned in the same sentence they are related spiritual concepts. Paul says in 1Corinthians 1:30 that Jesus is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

Look at the common theme running through the verses I gave you.



















There is a common theme running through each of these passages of scripture, and that common theme is gold related to righteousness and how it is God that gives it and how we human beings tarnish it with our rebellion against God in which we ignore His commands. These verses all cover one spiritual topic. Gold refined in the fire, and that fire is temptation and persecution. And Jesus offers us the refined gold that He made out of Himself in living a sinless life. We can buy it without money and without price. All it costs us is everything we that we are. We have to give up on self and just trust and obey God. Let Him fashion who we are.

We can't even begin to sort out the tangle of our sinfulness, but God can. He's the only one that knows us well enough to know how sin has transformed us away from the person He created us to be, and what real righteousness really is. And He is the only one that is capable of recreating us back into His image. That's why Jesus is made unto wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[popsthebuilder1]

I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you deny that sanctification is a real thing or that faith needs to grow?

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Gary K]

I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.

This entire line of thought is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him. I don't know how you can say, Jesus is the answer, and ignore what He says for what Jesus says comes from who He is and His love for us. . I find that to be dangerous spiritual territory.

 

[Clete]

Those of you who think it impossible to do good works. Please explain this passage to me!

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

I know none of you will. It will go ignored along with the rest of the passages I've already cited that prove we are capable of doing good works so I'll just continue without bothering to wait on what will never come....

Noah was "a just man" and "he walked with God" (Genesis 6:9)...

Genesis7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

​

Abraham obeyed God when he offered his son as God had instructed...

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”​

Lot is called "just", "righteous" and "godly" all in one single passage!

2 Peter 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations...​

The oldest single book in all of existence is about a righteous man...

Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”​

King David did righteousness all over the place! He said so himself...

Psalms18:20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all His judgments were before me,
And I did not put away His statutes from me.
23 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.​

Then it is confirmed in multiple places...

2 Samuel 22:21“The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
23 For all His judgments were before me;
And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
24 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to my cleanness in His eyes.

I Kings 14:8...and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only what was right in My eyes;

I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’​

King Asa did what was right in God's eyes...

I Kings 15:11 Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did his father David. 12 And he banished the perverted persons from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 13 Also he removed Maachah his grandmother from being queen mother, because she had made an obscene image of Asherah. And Asa cut down her obscene image and burned it by the Brook Kidron. 14 But the high places were not removed. Nevertheless Asa’s heart was loyal to the Lord all his days.​

Same goes for King Hezekiah...

II Kings 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. .3 And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. 6 For he held fast to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses.​

And King Josiah...

II Kings 22:1 22 Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath. 2 And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in all the ways of his father David; he did not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.​

There are several others that I've already mentioned like Abel an Enoch. The bible says that Joseph was "a just man", not to mention Mary. Then, of course, there's John the Baptist, the good Samaritan, that one leper out of ten that were healed who returned to worship Jesus and the Centurion who's faith amazed Jesus, and we mustn't forget the Twelve Apostles and Paul and Timothy and on and on and on! The list is seemingly endless and in fact it very nearly is endless!


Now, since you all seem to be as thick headed as Jonah and Peter, I feel the need to point out that none of these people were perfect! To this point, if you bothered to read the passages I quoted, you likely noticed one place where I left in (intentionally) an exception that is mentioned about King David's righteous life. Here's the passages again...

I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.​

That exception is referring to when David murdered Uriah in order to get Uriah's wife! That's one huge whopper of an exception! David was certainly not perfect and needed to be saved just like everyone else.

And finally, I want to point out that the filthy rags passage you guys are all hanging your hat on is talking in general terms about the nation of Israel at the time of Isaiah's writing. Isaiah was calling on God for help because the nation was in such a terrible state. Go ahead and read Isaiah 64 but not just one verse, read the whole chapter. It'll take you all of two minutes. Here's a small excerpt from that chapter. In fact it is the verse that immediately precedes the filthy rags comment...

Isaiah 64:1 You [God] meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.​

Now, if that does not biblically extablish that people are capable of doing things that are good, then there is no way to biblically establish anything. Your choice then is clear. Will you accept the teaching of scripture or will you cling to the doctrines of men?

Clete


P.S. I'm indebted to a blog post that I found online where most of the scripture references in this post were listed for me. The author goes much further than I went here and while he makes some erronious conclusions, his blog post is well worth reading...

Examples of righteous and holy people in the Bible

 

[Lon]

Do you deny that sanctification is a real thing or that faith needs to grow?

This one is difficult in the sense that some see 'sanctification' as 'saved' and use it interchangeably.
For me, I keep these separate though if one is cleansed, then salvation is assured.

-We are cleansed (sanctified) now. Romans 8:1-11
-We are a continual progress Romans 8:29 Ephesians 2:10 John 13:6-10 and along with other's posts, it shows we can and do, new-naturally, produce works of righteousness in Christ. Thus 'all our works' in Christ become His Works and His will working in us.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

-We are looking for a future fulfillment where Christ's work in us is ultimately fulfilled John 3:2

 

[Lon]

This entire line of thought is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him. I don't know how you can say, Jesus is the answer, and ignore what He says for what Jesus says comes from who He is and His love for us. . I find that to be dangerous spiritual territory.

"Gold" is a metaphor for what? Of course you can keep 'gold' in your discussion, just as one does when discussing the streets of heaven, but such is a metaphor for "that which is treasured and precious." I'm simply saying drop the metaphor, not at length, but in discussion where that which Gold is compared to, is the focus of the brief scope and intent of short posts on forum. :e4e:

 

[Cntrysner]

Those of you who think it impossible to do good works. Please explain this passage to me!

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

Man can do no good works, they belong to Christ in us by the gift of grace. Ungodliness has always been in the righteous good works of men by excusing themselves or it was just evil in their hearts and refusing any form of goodness. Goodness in reality is a denying of self and being a servant that gives all honor to others by counting the ones served above themselves as mere men. We are not acceptable are anything we do to God but if it is Christ given. We who are alive have not been transfigured but will be, we look forward to it and it is a promise that Christ will keep but again the good that we do will be purified by fire, for us to claim a good work it will be measured against the sinless One and will have to meet His standard of righteousness for good.

Let's talk about lust and how you deny it. Do you deny all lust in mind and body as Christ did?
We look forward to we will be changed but not yet if you are in the flesh. I'm not talking about perfection now just being able to deny lust in your mind. I am trying to tell you that any good work in God's eyes now that we have Christ and His cross will be measure by total sinlessness. Righteous standards have changed and are not found before the mystery of Christ in us revealed, so we should never speak of the goodness of ourselves but Christ in us.

You spoke of two standards and they to me appear as this...we have a promise that we will be changed and perfected in good works and the other is we are still in the flesh and have the hope of Glory, both exist. We are perfect (promised and sealed in Christ) but we are still flesh and a slave to sin. Circumcision was give to Abraham the father of us all by faith but Spiritual circumcision has not occurred yet for us or any before us in flesh, we are still sinners because we are still in the flesh and no flesh or what it can do is acceptable to God unless it is sinless by flesh. We are perfected but still tied to our flesh and the only way one can do good is to declare they in the flesh are sinless and without a spot. For me to believe that you can do good or any man in Christ you will have to prove to me that you are incapable of sin. When you are changed then you will be incapable of sin and only then. That's why faithful Abraham who feared God and would have sacrificed his son was given circumcision of the flesh.

I know none of you will. It will go ignored along with the rest of the passages I've already cited that prove we are capable of doing good works so I'll just continue without bothering to wait on what will never come....

Noah was "a just man" and "he walked with God" (Genesis 6:9)...

Genesis7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
​

Noah was imputed righteous (just) before he entered the arc. Entering the antitype arc did not change his justified standing. It was the same as before.

Abraham obeyed God when he offered his son as God had instructed...

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”​

Every man from the time of Abraham has a multitude of seed. Again the shall be for possession of the promise. Abraham feared God and had faith but was then given the work of circumcision of the flesh, why so?. This script is pointing to Christ. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, you can't strike against the rock.

Lot is called "just", "righteous" and "godly" all in one single passage!

2 Peter 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations...​

Was Lot in Christ? Lot was blinded by drink and easily deceived.

The oldest single book in all of existence is about a righteous man...

Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”​

Job continued to question God and was given over to Satan at the time God considered Job as blameless and Job suffered his righteousness.

King David did righteousness all over the place! He said so himself...

Psalms18:20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all His judgments were before me,
And I did not put away His statutes from me.
23 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.​

Then it is confirmed in multiple places...

2 Samuel 22:21“The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
23 For all His judgments were before me;
And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
24 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to my cleanness in His eyes.

I Kings 14:8...and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only what was right in My eyes;

I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’​

David as king was an adulterer as Abraham was and they both feared God looking forward to a promise that was not attainable at that time. You can not use them as an example of good after the cross.

I won't continue to responded to more of your examples of men that did good before the cross because they all were mere OT shadows and display the faith and works of men. Show me how Paul claimed good works or how Paul spoke of righteousness.

There are several others that I've already mentioned like Abel an Enoch. The bible says that Joseph was "a just man", not to mention Mary. Then, of course, there's John the Baptist, the good Samaritan, that one leper out of ten that were healed who returned to worship Jesus and the Centurion who's faith amazed Jesus, and we mustn't forget the Twelve Apostles and Paul and Timothy and on and on and on! The list is seemingly endless and in fact it very nearly is endless!

It is endless! All your examples are mere men that will fall beneath the waves as Peter denying Christ did. Tell us how Paul refers to what good a man can do.​

 

[Clete]

Man can do no good works, they belong to Christ in us by the gift of grace. Ungodliness has always been in the righteous good works of men by excusing themselves or it was just evil in their hearts and refusing any form of goodness. Goodness in reality is a denying of self and being a servant that gives all honor to others by counting the ones served above themselves as mere men. We are not acceptable are anything we do to God but if it is Christ given. We who are alive have not been transfigured but will be, we look forward to it and it is a promise that Christ will keep but again the good that we do will be purified by fire, for us to claim a good work it will be measured against the sinless One and will have to meet His standard of righteousness for good.

Let's talk about lust and how you deny it. Do you deny all lust in mind and body as Christ did?
We look forward to we will be changed but not yet if you are in the flesh. I'm not talking about perfection now just being able to deny lust in your mind. I am trying to tell you that any good work in God's eyes now that we have Christ and His cross will be measure by total sinlessness. Righteous standards have changed and are not found before the mystery of Christ in us revealed, so we should never speak of the goodness of ourselves but Christ in us.

You spoke of two standards and they to me appear as this...we have a promise that we will be changed and perfected in good works and the other is we are still in the flesh and have the hope of Glory, both exist. We are perfect (promised and sealed in Christ) but we are still flesh and a slave to sin. Circumcision was give to Abraham the father of us all by faith but Spiritual circumcision has not occurred yet for us or any before us in flesh, we are still sinners because we are still in the flesh and no flesh or what it can do is acceptable to God unless it is sinless by flesh. We are perfected but still tied to our flesh and the only way one can do good is to declare they in the flesh are sinless and without a spot. For me to believe that you can do good or any man in Christ you will have to prove to me that you are incapable of sin. When you are changed then you will be incapable of sin and only then. That's why faithful Abraham who feared God and would have sacrificed his son was given circumcision of the flesh.






Noah was imputed righteous (just) before he entered the arc. Entering the antitype arc did not change his justified standing. It was the same as before.



Every man from the time of Abraham has a multitude of seed. Again the shall be for possession of the promise. Abraham feared God and had faith but was then given the work of circumcision of the flesh, why so?. This script is pointing to Christ. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, you can't strike against the rock.




Was Lot in Christ? Lot was blinded by drink and easily deceived.



Job continued to question God and was given over to Satan at the time God considered Job as blameless and Job suffered his righteousness.



David as king was an adulterer as Abraham was and they both feared God looking forward to a promise that was not attainable at that time. You can not use them as an example of good after the cross.

I won't continue to responded to more of your examples of men that did good before the cross because they all were mere OT shadows and display the faith and works of men. Show me how Paul claimed good works or how Paul spoke of righteousness.



It is endless! All your examples are mere men that will fall beneath the waves as Peter denying Christ did. Tell us how Paul refers to what good a man can do.

I already said that none of these people were perfect and that they all needed saved just like everyone else.

You INTENTIONALLY ignored that and thus INTENTIONALLY conflated two seperate issues and/or directly denied what I just PROVED.

In short, you're a waste of time because you either don't know how to have a two way conversation or are unwilling to do so.

Welcome to my PERMANENT ignore list. I won't be taking you off of it again - ever.

Goodbye! Can't really wait to hear how you argue your point against the God who called David righteous. That'll be a hoot!

Clete

 

[Clete]

I wonder what percentage of the bible that Cntrysner is required to ignore to maintain his completely asinine doctrine that teaches "Man can do no good works"?

I've already quoted many passages and even whole chapters of the bible but I just keep thinking of more....

Acts 9:36 At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did.

Romans 2: 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

1 Timothy 5:9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

1 Timothy 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Titus 2:6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Titus 3:14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,

1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.​