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  • #91
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    It wasn't to you in particular, however context IS Isaiah.

    The context: You dirty a rag, it needs to be washed.
    No, the context is not Isaiah. It is Revelation 3. The white raiment is Christ's imputed righteousness for without it our sinfulness is fully exposed and we are poor, blind, miserable and naked. Since the gold and the white raiment are mentioned in the same sentence they are related spiritual concepts. Paul says in 1Corinthians 1:30 that Jesus is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

    Look at the common theme running through the verses I gave you.

    Isaiah 13: 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
    Job 23: 10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.*n2
    Ezekiel 16: 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
    9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.*n6
    10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
    11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
    12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.*n7
    13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
    14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
    15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
    16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
    17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,*n8
    Lamentations 4:
    1How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
    2 The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
    Zechariah 13: 7 ¶Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
    8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lordis my God.
    Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
    1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    Revelation 3: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Isaiah 55: 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.*n1
    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
    There is a common theme running through each of these passages of scripture, and that common theme is gold related to righteousness and how it is God that gives it and how we human beings tarnish it with our rebellion against God in which we ignore His commands. These verses all cover one spiritual topic. Gold refined in the fire, and that fire is temptation and persecution. And Jesus offers us the refined gold that He made out of Himself in living a sinless life. We can buy it without money and without price. All it costs us is everything we that we are. We have to give up on self and just trust and obey God. Let Him fashion who we are.

    We can't even begin to sort out the tangle of our sinfulness, but God can. He's the only one that knows us well enough to know how sin has transformed us away from the person He created us to be, and what real righteousness really is. And He is the only one that is capable of recreating us back into His image. That's why Jesus is made unto wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      No, the context is not Isaiah. It is Revelation 3. The white raiment is Christ's imputed righteousness for without it our sinfulness is fully exposed and we are poor, blind, miserable and naked. Since the gold and the white raiment are mentioned in the same sentence they are related spiritual concepts. Paul says in 1Corinthians 1:30 that Jesus is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

      Look at the common theme running through the verses I gave you.



















      There is a common theme running through each of these passages of scripture, and that common theme is gold related to righteousness and how it is God that gives it and how we human beings tarnish it with our rebellion against God in which we ignore His commands. These verses all cover one spiritual topic. Gold refined in the fire, and that fire is temptation and persecution. And Jesus offers us the refined gold that He made out of Himself in living a sinless life. We can buy it without money and without price. All it costs us is everything we that we are. We have to give up on self and just trust and obey God. Let Him fashion who we are.

      We can't even begin to sort out the tangle of our sinfulness, but God can. He's the only one that knows us well enough to know how sin has transformed us away from the person He created us to be, and what real righteousness really is. And He is the only one that is capable of recreating us back into His image. That's why Jesus is made unto wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
      I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.
        Do you deny that sanctification is a real thing or that faith needs to grow?

        Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Lon View Post
          I'd give up the 'gold' metaphor and simply go to the actual. It is about sin, its stain, and the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the summation of all of scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ.
          This entire line of thought is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him. I don't know how you can say, Jesus is the answer, and ignore what He says for what Jesus says comes from who He is and His love for us. . I find that to be dangerous spiritual territory.
          “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
          ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

          “One and God make a majority.”
          ― Frederick Douglass

          Comment


          • #95
            Those of you who think it impossible to do good works. Please explain this passage to me!
            Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

            I know none of you will. It will go ignored along with the rest of the passages I've already cited that prove we are capable of doing good works so I'll just continue without bothering to wait on what will never come....

            Noah was "a just man" and "he walked with God" (Genesis 6:9)...
            Genesis7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.


            Abraham obeyed God when he offered his son as God had instructed...
            Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

            15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

            Lot is called "just", "righteous" and "godly" all in one single passage!
            2 Peter 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations...

            The oldest single book in all of existence is about a righteous man...
            Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

            King David did righteousness all over the place! He said so himself...
            Psalms18:20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
            According to the cleanness of my hands
            He has recompensed me.
            21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
            And have not wickedly departed from my God.
            22 For all His judgments were before me,
            And I did not put away His statutes from me.
            23 I was also blameless before Him,
            And I kept myself from my iniquity.
            24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
            According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.

            Then it is confirmed in multiple places...
            2 Samuel 22:21“The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
            According to the cleanness of my hands
            He has recompensed me.
            22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
            And have not wickedly departed from my God.
            23 For all His judgments were before me;
            And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
            24 I was also blameless before Him,
            And I kept myself from my iniquity.
            25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
            According to my cleanness in His eyes.

            I Kings 14:8...and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only what was right in My eyes;

            I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

            Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’

            King Asa did what was right in God's eyes...
            I Kings 15:11 Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did his father David. 12 And he banished the perverted persons from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 13 Also he removed Maachah his grandmother from being queen mother, because she had made an obscene image of Asherah. And Asa cut down her obscene image and burned it by the Brook Kidron. 14 But the high places were not removed. Nevertheless Asa’s heart was loyal to the Lord all his days.

            Same goes for King Hezekiah...
            II Kings 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. .3 And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

            4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. 6 For he held fast to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses.

            And King Josiah...
            II Kings 22:1 22 Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath. 2 And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in all the ways of his father David; he did not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

            There are several others that I've already mentioned like Abel an Enoch. The bible says that Joseph was "a just man", not to mention Mary. Then, of course, there's John the Baptist, the good Samaritan, that one leper out of ten that were healed who returned to worship Jesus and the Centurion who's faith amazed Jesus, and we mustn't forget the Twelve Apostles and Paul and Timothy and on and on and on! The list is seemingly endless and in fact it very nearly is endless!


            Now, since you all seem to be as thick headed as Jonah and Peter, I feel the need to point out that none of these people were perfect! To this point, if you bothered to read the passages I quoted, you likely noticed one place where I left in (intentionally) an exception that is mentioned about King David's righteous life. Here's the passages again...
            I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

            That exception is referring to when David murdered Uriah in order to get Uriah's wife! That's one huge whopper of an exception! David was certainly not perfect and needed to be saved just like everyone else.

            And finally, I want to point out that the filthy rags passage you guys are all hanging your hat on is talking in general terms about the nation of Israel at the time of Isaiah's writing. Isaiah was calling on God for help because the nation was in such a terrible state. Go ahead and read Isaiah 64 but not just one verse, read the whole chapter. It'll take you all of two minutes. Here's a small excerpt from that chapter. In fact it is the verse that immediately precedes the filthy rags comment...
            Isaiah 64:1 You [God] meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
            Who remembers You in Your ways.
            You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
            In these ways we continue;
            And we need to be saved.

            Now, if that does not biblically extablish that people are capable of doing things that are good, then there is no way to biblically establish anything. Your choice then is clear. Will you accept the teaching of scripture or will you cling to the doctrines of men?

            Clete


            P.S. I'm indebted to a blog post that I found online where most of the scripture references in this post were listed for me. The author goes much further than I went here and while he makes some erronious conclusions, his blog post is well worth reading...

            Examples of righteous and holy people in the Bible
            Last edited by Clete; October 23rd, 2019, 08:38 AM.
            sigpic
            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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            • #96
              Originally posted by popsthebuilder1 View Post
              Do you deny that sanctification is a real thing or that faith needs to grow?
              This one is difficult in the sense that some see 'sanctification' as 'saved' and use it interchangeably.
              For me, I keep these separate though if one is cleansed, then salvation is assured.

              -We are cleansed (sanctified) now. Romans 8:1-11
              -We are a continual progress Romans 8:29 Ephesians 2:10 John 13:6-10 and along with other's posts, it shows we can and do, new-naturally, produce works of righteousness in Christ. Thus 'all our works' in Christ become His Works and His will working in us.
              Philippians 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

              -We are looking for a future fulfillment where Christ's work in us is ultimately fulfilled John 3:2
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
                This entire line of thought is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him. I don't know how you can say, Jesus is the answer, and ignore what He says for what Jesus says comes from who He is and His love for us. . I find that to be dangerous spiritual territory.
                "Gold" is a metaphor for what? Of course you can keep 'gold' in your discussion, just as one does when discussing the streets of heaven, but such is a metaphor for "that which is treasured and precious." I'm simply saying drop the metaphor, not at length, but in discussion where that which Gold is compared to, is the focus of the brief scope and intent of short posts on forum.
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Clete View Post
                  Those of you who think it impossible to do good works. Please explain this passage to me!
                  Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
                  Man can do no good works, they belong to Christ in us by the gift of grace. Ungodliness has always been in the righteous good works of men by excusing themselves or it was just evil in their hearts and refusing any form of goodness. Goodness in reality is a denying of self and being a servant that gives all honor to others by counting the ones served above themselves as mere men. We are not acceptable are anything we do to God but if it is Christ given. We who are alive have not been transfigured but will be, we look forward to it and it is a promise that Christ will keep but again the good that we do will be purified by fire, for us to claim a good work it will be measured against the sinless One and will have to meet His standard of righteousness for good.

                  Let's talk about lust and how you deny it. Do you deny all lust in mind and body as Christ did?
                  We look forward to we will be changed but not yet if you are in the flesh. I'm not talking about perfection now just being able to deny lust in your mind. I am trying to tell you that any good work in God's eyes now that we have Christ and His cross will be measure by total sinlessness. Righteous standards have changed and are not found before the mystery of Christ in us revealed, so we should never speak of the goodness of ourselves but Christ in us.

                  You spoke of two standards and they to me appear as this...we have a promise that we will be changed and perfected in good works and the other is we are still in the flesh and have the hope of Glory, both exist. We are perfect (promised and sealed in Christ) but we are still flesh and a slave to sin. Circumcision was give to Abraham the father of us all by faith but Spiritual circumcision has not occurred yet for us or any before us in flesh, we are still sinners because we are still in the flesh and no flesh or what it can do is acceptable to God unless it is sinless by flesh. We are perfected but still tied to our flesh and the only way one can do good is to declare they in the flesh are sinless and without a spot. For me to believe that you can do good or any man in Christ you will have to prove to me that you are incapable of sin. When you are changed then you will be incapable of sin and only then. That's why faithful Abraham who feared God and would have sacrificed his son was given circumcision of the flesh.



                  I know none of you will. It will go ignored along with the rest of the passages I've already cited that prove we are capable of doing good works so I'll just continue without bothering to wait on what will never come....

                  Noah was "a just man" and "he walked with God" (Genesis 6:9)...[indent]Genesis7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

                  Noah was imputed righteous (just) before he entered the arc. Entering the antitype arc did not change his justified standing. It was the same as before.

                  Abraham obeyed God when he offered his son as God had instructed...
                  Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

                  15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
                  Every man from the time of Abraham has a multitude of seed. Again the shall be for possession of the promise. Abraham feared God and had faith but was then given the work of circumcision of the flesh, why so?. This script is pointing to Christ. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, you can't strike against the rock.


                  Lot is called "just", "righteous" and "godly" all in one single passage!
                  2 Peter 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations...
                  Was Lot in Christ? Lot was blinded by drink and easily deceived.

                  The oldest single book in all of existence is about a righteous man...
                  Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
                  Job continued to question God and was given over to Satan at the time God considered Job as blameless and Job suffered his righteousness.

                  King David did righteousness all over the place! He said so himself...
                  Psalms18:20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
                  According to the cleanness of my hands
                  He has recompensed me.
                  21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
                  And have not wickedly departed from my God.
                  22 For all His judgments were before me,
                  And I did not put away His statutes from me.
                  23 I was also blameless before Him,
                  And I kept myself from my iniquity.
                  24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
                  According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.

                  Then it is confirmed in multiple places...
                  2 Samuel 22:21“The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
                  According to the cleanness of my hands
                  He has recompensed me.
                  22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
                  And have not wickedly departed from my God.
                  23 For all His judgments were before me;
                  And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
                  24 I was also blameless before Him,
                  And I kept myself from my iniquity.
                  25 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
                  According to my cleanness in His eyes.

                  I Kings 14:8...and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only what was right in My eyes;

                  I Kings 15:5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

                  Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’
                  David as king was an adulterer as Abraham was and they both feared God looking forward to a promise that was not attainable at that time. You can not use them as an example of good after the cross.

                  I won't continue to responded to more of your examples of men that did good before the cross because they all were mere OT shadows and display the faith and works of men. Show me how Paul claimed good works or how Paul spoke of righteousness.

                  There are several others that I've already mentioned like Abel an Enoch. The bible says that Joseph was "a just man", not to mention Mary. Then, of course, there's John the Baptist, the good Samaritan, that one leper out of ten that were healed who returned to worship Jesus and the Centurion who's faith amazed Jesus, and we mustn't forget the Twelve Apostles and Paul and Timothy and on and on and on! The list is seemingly endless and in fact it very nearly is endless!
                  It is endless! All your examples are mere men that will fall beneath the waves as Peter denying Christ did. Tell us how Paul refers to what good a man can do.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                    Man can do no good works, they belong to Christ in us by the gift of grace. Ungodliness has always been in the righteous good works of men by excusing themselves or it was just evil in their hearts and refusing any form of goodness. Goodness in reality is a denying of self and being a servant that gives all honor to others by counting the ones served above themselves as mere men. We are not acceptable are anything we do to God but if it is Christ given. We who are alive have not been transfigured but will be, we look forward to it and it is a promise that Christ will keep but again the good that we do will be purified by fire, for us to claim a good work it will be measured against the sinless One and will have to meet His standard of righteousness for good.

                    Let's talk about lust and how you deny it. Do you deny all lust in mind and body as Christ did?
                    We look forward to we will be changed but not yet if you are in the flesh. I'm not talking about perfection now just being able to deny lust in your mind. I am trying to tell you that any good work in God's eyes now that we have Christ and His cross will be measure by total sinlessness. Righteous standards have changed and are not found before the mystery of Christ in us revealed, so we should never speak of the goodness of ourselves but Christ in us.

                    You spoke of two standards and they to me appear as this...we have a promise that we will be changed and perfected in good works and the other is we are still in the flesh and have the hope of Glory, both exist. We are perfect (promised and sealed in Christ) but we are still flesh and a slave to sin. Circumcision was give to Abraham the father of us all by faith but Spiritual circumcision has not occurred yet for us or any before us in flesh, we are still sinners because we are still in the flesh and no flesh or what it can do is acceptable to God unless it is sinless by flesh. We are perfected but still tied to our flesh and the only way one can do good is to declare they in the flesh are sinless and without a spot. For me to believe that you can do good or any man in Christ you will have to prove to me that you are incapable of sin. When you are changed then you will be incapable of sin and only then. That's why faithful Abraham who feared God and would have sacrificed his son was given circumcision of the flesh.






                    Noah was imputed righteous (just) before he entered the arc. Entering the antitype arc did not change his justified standing. It was the same as before.



                    Every man from the time of Abraham has a multitude of seed. Again the shall be for possession of the promise. Abraham feared God and had faith but was then given the work of circumcision of the flesh, why so?. This script is pointing to Christ. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, you can't strike against the rock.




                    Was Lot in Christ? Lot was blinded by drink and easily deceived.



                    Job continued to question God and was given over to Satan at the time God considered Job as blameless and Job suffered his righteousness.



                    David as king was an adulterer as Abraham was and they both feared God looking forward to a promise that was not attainable at that time. You can not use them as an example of good after the cross.

                    I won't continue to responded to more of your examples of men that did good before the cross because they all were mere OT shadows and display the faith and works of men. Show me how Paul claimed good works or how Paul spoke of righteousness.



                    It is endless! All your examples are mere men that will fall beneath the waves as Peter denying Christ did. Tell us how Paul refers to what good a man can do.
                    I already said that none of these people were perfect and that they all needed saved just like everyone else.

                    You INTENTIONALLY ignored that and thus INTENTIONALLY conflated two seperate issues and/or directly denied what I just PROVED.

                    In short, you're a waste of time because you either don't know how to have a two way conversation or are unwilling to do so.

                    Welcome to my PERMANENT ignore list. I won't be taking you off of it again - ever.

                    Goodbye! Can't really wait to hear how you argue your point against the God who called David righteous. That'll be a hoot!

                    Clete
                    sigpic
                    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                    Comment


                    • I wonder what percentage of the bible that Cntrysner is required to ignore to maintain his completely asinine doctrine that teaches "Man can do no good works"?

                      I've already quoted many passages and even whole chapters of the bible but I just keep thinking of more....
                      Acts 9:36 At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did.

                      Romans 2: 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

                      Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

                      Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

                      1 Timothy 2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

                      1 Timothy 5:9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

                      1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

                      1 Timothy 6:18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

                      Titus 2:6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.

                      Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

                      Titus 3:14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

                      Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,

                      1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                        "Gold" is a metaphor for what? Of course you can keep 'gold' in your discussion, just as one does when discussing the streets of heaven, but such is a metaphor for "that which is treasured and precious." I'm simply saying drop the metaphor, not at length, but in discussion where that which Gold is compared to, is the focus of the brief scope and intent of short posts on forum.
                        There's a massive difference between the concept of making a man more precious than fine gold and the pavement on the streets of the New Jerusalem. The first speaks to what God wants to do in and for us, and the second just describes pavement in heaven. The way I look at it is if Jesus thought it was important enough to use the metaphor then the metaphor Itself has to be pretty important. The minute we humans start to discard something, i.e. leave it behind, as no big deal is the very moment we should be really digging into the entire concept because we're missing something. We are puny little finite beings with finite minds darkened by sin trying to understand the depths of the words of a truly righteous infinite God. Meaning that we are going to really struggle to see exactly what God has in mind as His thoughts are much higher and greater than our ability to understand all that he means. That makes the metaphor itself important and worthy of study.
                        “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                        ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                        “One and God make a majority.”
                        ― Frederick Douglass

                        Comment


                        • I wonder why Clete holds to his own personal goodness/righteousness when the bile clears teaches there is none good. It appears he robs God as the source of all goodness in us by the power of His Spirit working in us. If it is true God is the source of all goodness and God works in us then we must give the credit to God not ourselves.

                          Psa_14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

                          Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

                          Rom_3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

                          Paul clearly explains that he personally can do no good thing.

                          Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
                          Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
                          Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
                          Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
                          Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

                          Any good that we do is God working in us to do His will and anything that is pleasing in His sight. We do good works but we can not take the credit because it is God's good work in us through Christ. Christ gets the credit and all the glory!

                          Heb_13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

                          Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

                          Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

                          1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

                          1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                            What is your interpretation of this scripture concerning righteousness?...

                            Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
                            Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
                            Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
                            The chapter begins with a brief mention of what every believer should already know so well that it shouldn't need to be mentioned again.
                            Your posts show that you have never been taught the foundation of belief that comes from repentance of sin and of an active living faith towards God.

                            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                            Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
                            Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
                            Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
                            There is a difference between what happens when a righteous person sins and what happens when a wicked person sins.
                            The righteous person will repent and then continue his walk of faith after sinning, but the wicked will not repent and will not resume his walk of faith.

                            Proverbs 24:16
                            16 For a just [righteous] man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.



                            There are some people who believe in the twin heresies of Original Sin (aka Total Depravity) and Once Saved Always Saved (aka Preservation of the Saints).
                            Those people think that the only way a person can be made righteous is by an act of Jesus and that once the person is made righteous then that person can never become wicked again.

                            When a person is truly righteous by their own faith, the act of Jesus that ensures a person's salvation is writing that person's name with the righteous in the book of the living.
                            A person is not blotted out from the book of the living because that person sins once, but a righteous person who chooses to become a wicked person's name will be blotted out because of habitual faithlessness and lawlessness.

                            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                            [MENTION=4345]genuineoriginal[/MENTION], you believe that after you are regenerated in water and then commit a sin you must repent of that sin, am I correct?
                            No, you are not correct.
                            You assume that I believe that there is a particular act that a person can do that will automatically wash away any sin they commit.
                            There is not.
                            The only way to ensure that you your sins will be forgiven is to maintain a close relationship with the Father and the Son who can forgive your sins.
                            You are not able to maintain a close relationship with the Father and the Son by treating baptism as if it is a magic spell you can cast at will.
                            Baptism is symbolic of you your renouncing of your previous sinfulness in an effort to ensure that your thoughts are on how your sin caused a rift in your relationship with the Father and the Son.
                            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                            If I am correct
                            We already established that you are not correct.
                            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                            how to you receive forgiveness? Do you need to be baptized in water again? Do you repent and then excuse yourself?

                            1 John 1:9
                            9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just [righteous] to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


                            Why would God forgive your sins when you confess?
                            Because God is seeking for righteous people who love Him and whose primary desire is to be with Him, both in the here and now and also in the world to come.
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              The OP believes in his works of righteousness, one is water baptismal regeneration does he not?
                              You seem to have missed the mark on that one.

                              Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              His argument is based on self righteousness and I responded to his premise.
                              You responded to the echos of the false doctrines you were taught, not to my premise.

                              Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              All that a man can work or do is nothing more than filthy rags.
                              False.
                              The "filthy rags" verse is about a group of people who turned from being righteous into sin.
                              When they were righteous people, God saw their righteousnesses as good.
                              When they turned from righteousness and became wicked, all the righteousness they had before became as worthless as filthy rags.
                              God has chosen to only see the righteousnesses of the righteous and to only see the wickedness of the wicked.

                              Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              Would you agree that any righteous work belongs to Christ and only Christ should get the credit?
                              Of course I would not agree, since that is not what the Bible teaches.
                              Learn to read what is written.

                              _____
                              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                                I was trying to get you to understand that if you are a sinner your righteous works are stained with sin and unacceptable to God.
                                That is a small part of what the Bible teaches, but where you seem to go off the rails is when you fail to recognize the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

                                Ezekiel 18:21-24
                                21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
                                22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
                                23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
                                24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.



                                When the righteous person becomes one of the wicked, God will not even look at all the righteousness that person had done.
                                When the wicked person becomes one of the righteous, God will not even look at all the sins that person had done.
                                Learn to read what is written.

                                _____
                                The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                                ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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