ECT Learning about the Futurist interpretation

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
As a non-futurist I wonder about the various explanations for various end-time scenarios. This post is meant only to educate me concerning some of the proposed details of the millennium.

So here is the question: (please excuse my ignorance)
If the elect are raptured out of the world and those who are not Christ's are destroyed, who will the Lord rule over for 1000 years?
 

Right Divider

Body part
As a non-futurist I wonder about the various explanations for various end-time scenarios. This post is meant only to educate me concerning some of the proposed details of the millennium.

So here is the question: (please excuse my ignorance)
If the elect are raptured out of the world and those who are not Christ's are destroyed, who will the Lord rule over for 1000 years?
I can see that you already have some problems, firstly your understanding of the "elect".

But from another angle, Jesus promised the 12 that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

How do you think that Jesus will accomplish this? (hint: resurrection).

Rev 20:4-6 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note that, as I've told you before, the context of the book of Revelation is Christ and His relationship with Israel. The body of Christ are NOT priests.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I can see that you already have some problems, firstly your understanding of the "elect".

But from another angle, Jesus promised the 12 that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

How do you think that Jesus will accomplish this? (hint: resurrection).

Rev 20:4-6 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note that, as I've told you before, the context of the book of Revelation is Christ and His relationship with Israel. The body of Christ are NOT priests.

Sorry, still don't get it.

I thought that, according to millennial teaching, all the Christians get raptured out? Do some of them come back at some point?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Sorry, still don't get it.

I thought that, according to millennial teaching, all the Christians get raptured out? Do some of them come back at some point?
So you are still completely ignorant of what right division teaches?

And you cannot see the resurrection in that passage that I quoted?

Are you serious about learning or are you just going to ignore everything I post and just reiterate your own misunderstanding?

P.S. The catching away is for members of the body of Christ.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
So you are still completely ignorant of what right division teaches?

And you cannot see the resurrection in that passage that I quoted?

Are you serious about learning or are you just going to ignore everything I post and just reiterate your own misunderstanding?

P.S. The catching away is for members of the body of Christ.

No, I am seriously not understanding.

I thought all Christians were supposed to get raptured out of the world. No?
Is this because of your distinction between those in and those out of the body?

My confirmed belief about the first resurrection is that it is being born again.
But that doesn't matter, I am trying to understand how your logistics goes.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So here is the question: (please excuse my ignorance)
If the elect are raptured out of the world and those who are not Christ's are destroyed, who will the Lord rule over for 1000 years?

Sometime after those in the Body of Christ are raptured then the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world (Mt.24:14) and many people will be converted. The Lord Jesus will then rule over them.

I thought that, according to millennial teaching, all the Christians get raptured out? Do some of them come back at some point?

When those in the Body of Christ are resurrected at the rapture then they will always be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord when He returns to the earth to rule in His kingdom. And those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).
 

Right Divider

Body part
No, I am seriously not understanding.

I thought all Christians were supposed to get raptured out of the world. No?
Is this because of your distinction between those in and those out of the body?

My confirmed belief about the first resurrection is that it is being born again.
But that doesn't matter, I am trying to understand how your logistics goes.
The body of Christ would be all believers today. The body will be caught away, as Paul says.

"your confirmed belief" about the first resurrection is completely false.

The passage that I showed you explains what the first resurrection is:

Rev 20:4-6 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Take off your blinder and read it like it says. They were people that had been murdered and were alive again in the millennial kingdom.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
The body of Christ would be all believers today. The body will be caught away, as Paul says.

"your confirmed belief" about the first resurrection is completely false.

The passage that I showed you explains what the first resurrection is:

Rev 20:4-6 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Take off your blinder and read it like it says. They were people that had been murdered and were alive again in the millennial kingdom.

Ok - so let me see if I understand.

Only those who were beheaded, in history, come back?
Is this who the Lord rules over?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ok - so let me see if I understand.

Only those who were beheaded, in history, come back?
Is this who the Lord rules over?

First of all, after the rapture there will be some people who will believe because the Christians which they knew suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth. Sometime after those in the Body of Christ are raptured then the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world (Mt.24:14) and many people will be converted. The Lord Jesus will then rule over them.

I thought that, according to millennial teaching, all the Christians get raptured out? Do some of them come back at some point?

When those in the Body of Christ are resurrected at the rapture then they will always be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord when He returns to the earth to rule in His kingdom. And those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I don't think that it's limited to that. I believe that is just an example.

Now don't get defensive about the following question. I am only asking it to learn your method.

How do you justify departing from a, so far, strictly literal interpretation to include, perhaps, some who have not been beheaded? It would seem that, if the passage is literal, it is a list of literal qualifications necessary for inclusion in the reigning process.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
First of all, after the rapture there will be some people who will believe because the Christians which they knew suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth. Sometime after those in the Body of Christ are raptured then the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world (Mt.24:14) and many people will be converted. The Lord Jesus will then rule over them.



When those in the Body of Christ are resurrected at the rapture then they will always be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord when He returns to the earth to rule in His kingdom. And those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).

Does this mean that, during the 1000 year reign, heaven will be emptied of all who have been saved? And then, once it is over they will return?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Now don't get defensive about the following question. I am only asking it to learn your method.

How do you justify departing from a, so far, strictly literal interpretation to include, perhaps, some who have not been beheaded?
You have a twisted idea of what literal means. It does NOT mean that that verse needs to be exclusive of others that will also be resurrected. It's simply representative. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected as per Jesus' comment about sitting with them in the kingdom of heaven.

It would seem that, if the passage is literal, it is a list of literal qualifications necessary for inclusion in the reigning process.
So you must think that they were "figuratively beheaded"? :juggle:
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
You have a twisted idea of what literal means. It does NOT mean that that verse needs to be exclusive of others that will also be resurrected. It's simply representative. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected as per Jesus' comment about sitting with them in the kingdom of heaven.


So you must think that they were "figuratively beheaded"? :juggle:

You didn't answer the question.

Of course I don't think that those who were physically beheaded were figuratively beheaded.
I am trying to understand your point of departure into figurative fulfillment in a portion of scripture that you claim must have a physical fulfillment. Is it possible, for example, that no one who was beheaded for Christ will be on that list because they fail other requirements?

No one does things without a reason. I am simply trying to pinpoint the reason. Whether I agree with it or not is not the point.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Does this mean that, during the 1000 year reign, heaven will be emptied of all who have been saved? And then, once it is over they will return?

First of all, those saved and not in the Body of Christ will be resurrected on the last day (Jn.6:40) of the age which will precede the kingdom age. And again, prior to this all of those in the Body of Christ will received new, immortal bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body at the rapture then later when He returns to the earth those in the Body will be with Him.

So, yes, during the 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus upon the earth heaven will be emptied of all believers.

And all believers will go to heaven, the eternal state, after the earthly kingdom comes to an end (1 Cor.15:24).
 

Right Divider

Body part
You didn't answer the question.

Of course I don't think that those who were physically beheaded were figuratively beheaded.
I am trying to understand your point of departure into figurative fulfillment in a portion of scripture that you claim must have a physical fulfillment. Is it possible, for example, that no one who was beheaded for Christ will be on that list because they fail other requirements?

No one does things without a reason. I am simply trying to pinpoint the reason. Whether I agree with it or not is not the point.
You've gone so far off the rails that I don't think that I can communicate with you.

The first resurrection is a RESURRECTION.... it is not "being born again" per other parts of scripture. Those "born again" passages are allegorical. Resurrection is literally a raising from physical death. Like Jesus was resurrected.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
You've gone so far off the rails that I don't think that I can communicate with you.

The first resurrection is a RESURRECTION.... it is not "being born again" per other parts of scripture. Those "born again" passages are allegorical. Resurrection is literally a raising from physical death. Like Jesus was resurrected.

That's fine, I understand your position on that.
And I understand that you believe some will be resurrected to earth to reign with Christ for the millennium.
That is not the question.

The question is why, in a passage that you are interpreting as having a physical fulfillment, do you take some of the passage in a figurative sense.
 

Right Divider

Body part
That's fine, I understand your position on that.
And I understand that you believe some will be resurrected to earth to reign with Christ for the millennium.
That is not the question.

The question is why, in a passage that you are interpreting as having a physical fulfillment, do you take some of the passage in a figurative sense.
Again, I am NOT doing that at all!

I'm taking it to be representative of a larger group.

Do think that every single believer that dies during the great tribulation will be beheaded?

The kingdom of Christ will exist physically on the earth, just like the Bible says that it will. Here is an example of Christ promising people material blessings in the kingdom:

Mat 19:27-29 KJV Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Again, I am NOT doing that at all!

I'm taking it to be representative of a larger group.

OK, so what is your justification, within this passage, that allows you to do that?

Do think that every single believer that dies during the great tribulation will be beheaded?

I never said that so, no. Is your criteria for those who reign with Christ for 1000 years that they all have in common that they went through the great tribulation?

The kingdom of Christ will exist physically on the earth, just like the Bible says that it will. Here is an example of Christ promising people material blessings in the kingdom:

Mat 19:27-29 KJV Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

You don't need to convince me of blessing in the kingdom. We are in agreement about most of that except for the timing.

But, in this passage you have quoted, Jesus tells specific members of His following, including Peter, that they will sit on only 12 thrones and judge Israel. Does this mean that they will return so they can go through the great tribulation? and if there are only 12 thrones, does this mean there will only be 12 of them?
 
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