ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo:

Although I agree that our objective is to share Christ with a lost world that is only doing what is natural, I think that if we remain silent on this issue, we may make it appear as though we endorse the behavior.

Sozo, let me clear everything up here. Of course I believe that homosexuality is wrong. But I don't think that we need to harp on just this one sin. There is no need, and we definitely have no right, to go around and start pointing fingers at people and saying there going to hell or what not for one, single sin. I hate it when "Christians" go around with a holier-than-thou attitude. I may not be a homosexual, but I have watched porno, even though I'm married. That means I have committed a sexual sin also. I have aslo lied, stole, cheated, etc., etc. I sin everyday and will continue to sin until I leave this corrupted flesh of mine.

Here's a verse I like from Project 86s' new album, Truthless Heroes:
"I was wrong to take my fill of you,
You were wrong to take me all,
The more I taste the more you make me ill.
The more I taste the more I need, need my fill of you."
- Team Black, Truthless Heroes

Like I said before, no christian is any better than a homosexual. In fact, no christian is any better than anyone else in this world, past or present. That means, Sozo, that you and I are no better than Hitler. People have to get this mindset out of their heads. There is no such a thing as a "good person".

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man
Originally posted by Sozo:


Sozo, let me clear everything up here. Of course I believe that homosexuality is wrong. But I don't think that we need to harp on just this one sin. There is no need, and we definitely have no right, to go around and start pointing fingers at people and saying there going to hell or what not for one, single sin. I hate it when "Christians" go around with a holier-than-thou attitude. I may not be a homosexual, but I have watched porno, even though I'm married. That means I have committed a sexual sin also. I have aslo lied, stole, cheated, etc., etc. I sin everyday and will continue to sin until I leave this corrupted flesh of mine.

Here's a verse I like from Project 86s' new album, Truthless Heroes:
"I was wrong to take my fill of you,
You were wrong to take me all,
The more I taste the more you make me ill.
The more I taste the more I need, need my fill of you."
- Team Black, Truthless Heroes

Like I said before, no christian is any better than a homosexual. In fact, no christian is any better than anyone else in this world, past or present. That means, Sozo, that you and I are no better than Hitler. People have to get this mindset out of their heads. There is no such a thing as a "good person".

Though many will disagree with that, I won't. However, if you were the pastor of a church and some kept standing up in your congregation promoting a pro-abortion agenda, it might be important on your part to say something, so that those who may have found themselves with child, would not consider this as an option.

In regards to who we are and who Christ is, my signature line used to read...

"There are no great men of God, there is only a great God of men".

According to the flesh, we have the propensity to do or be anything that is short of the glory of God. As a matter of fact, according to the flesh, we are incapable of doing anything other than sin. But thanks be to God, that we are no longer walking in the flesh, but in the spirit.

 

[o2bwise]

Hi wickwoman!

Hi wickwoman!

Hi wickwoman!,

I confess a deep conviction the Bible is inspired, wickwoman and I readily acknowledge that for many, such as possibly yourself, this deserves my being labeled "archaic" or "naive."

wick, I've been going to recovery meetings for years now. Most homosexuals I know have a history of being abused that if one did an objective statistical analysis of two groups (homosexual men and heterosexual men), the differences would be staggering.

This leads to two basic possibilities. One, WHO homosexuals are "influenced" folks into being more inclined to want to abuse them. Two, the abuse inclined the abused to be homosexual.

One thing I find paradoxical, wickwoman, is that the terrain of your dialogue seems mainly intellectual, however, in that very terrain, I sense a little bit lacking. Homosexuality is a condition, however, there may be underlying CAUSES of such a condition. If so, this invites a DEEPER level of intellectual vigor.

But, you don't go there. It's almost like "not going there" is part of "your" religion.

If you were willing to go there and apply principles, such as the statistical example I offered, certain conclusions would be glaringly evident.

Their environments are very, very different, wickwoman. Something happened and often at a very young age. Lies were believed. Things of rather foundational natures happened to form homosexuality before the concept was even aware to the person, usually.

Regardless of our contrasting views, I hope the following is apparent to you. My theology asks of me one thing. To love. To always love. I may fall short of that, but that is the one thing I am called to do.

To repeat something I wrote before. In love, I cannot and will not call what I believe to be "unwellness," "wellness." I want all people to be free from their personal prison houses.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

 

[Freak]

Wickwoman--

Since homosexuality is no problem with you what about other sexual perversions like bestality or necrophilia? Would you support someone who indulges in these wicked practices?

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Freak
Wickwoman--

Since homosexuality is no problem with you what about other sexual perversions like bestality or necrophilia? Would you support someone who indulges in these wicked practices?

To borrow from the Wiccans: "Insomuch as ye harm none, do as ye will."

That is the criteria I follow. If these two behaviors harmed none, then they would be acceptable. Since they do, then they are not acceptable. However, I don't believe in sin so I do not call them "sins" per say.

You are intentionally bringing up repulsive and disgusting behaviors to be insulting. I don't appreciate it. You call yourself a Christian. You are insulting and rude.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear O2BWise:

You said:

"One thing I find paradoxical, wickwoman, is that the terrain of your dialogue seems mainly intellectual, however, in that very terrain, I sense a little bit lacking. Homosexuality is a condition, however, there may be underlying CAUSES of such a condition. If so, this invites a DEEPER level of intellectual vigor.

But, you don't go there. It's almost like "not going there" is part of "your" religion."

"going there" is not necessary in this circumstance in my opinion. Be it genetics or be it environment, the fact remains it is beyond the control of the homosexual person in question. Therefore, to assume God would condemn such a person is not reasonable IF you believe God is loving and reasonable.

You have made it clear you do believe God is loving and reasonable. And I don't think you've said you believe the homosexual is headed for hell for only that sin. So, I can agree to disagree with you on the point that sin exists at all.

 

[Eireann]

Originally posted by wickwoman
You are intentionally bringing up repulsive and disgusting behaviors to be insulting. I don't appreciate it. You call yourself a Christian. You are insulting and rude.

While I generally agree with you about the "harm none" rule, Jay does have a valid point, even if it was made with rather unsavory examples. After all, "repulsive and disgusting" are rather subjective terms. What may be repulsive and disgusting to the majority may not be to the person actually committing the acts.

As to whether such acts as bestiality and necrophilia constitute "harming" someone, that would be a very interesting question to debate, semantically speaking. However, even if it can't be necessarily established that anyone or anything is being harmed, it certainly defies practically every sense of normality that we have and would very likely be linked to some mental illness or severe deviance.

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Eireann

While I generally agree with you about the "harm none" rule, Jay does have a valid point, even if it was made with rather unsavory examples. After all, "repulsive and disgusting" are rather subjective terms. What may be repulsive and disgusting to the majority may not be to the person actually committing the acts.

As to whether such acts as bestiality and necrophilia constitute "harming" someone, that would be a very interesting question to debate, semantically speaking. However, even if it can't be necessarily established that anyone or anything is being harmed, it certainly defies practically every sense of normality that we have and would very likely be linked to some mental illness or severe deviance.

In the case of beastiality, an animal is harmed. In the case of necrophilia, I suppose an argument could be made as to the lack of harmfulness, absent certain health concerns to the live person of course. However, both of these behaviors are crimes so that would "harm" the person who committed these acts since they would face jail or other legal ramifications.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Wickwoman
In the case of beastiality, an animal is harmed. In the case of necrophilia, I suppose an argument could be made as to the lack of harmfulness, absent certain health concerns to the live person of course. However, both of these behaviors are crimes so that would "harm" the person who committed these acts since they would face jail or other legal ramifications.

:crackup: I can't believe you guys are actually debating wheter or not beastiality and necrophilia are harmful or not! :crackup: Like you said wickwoman, both of these behaviors are crimes. Hmmmm, I wonder why? Is it maybe because these disgusting sexual acts are immoral? Could it be that, us being humans and having a moral code, know deep down inside that doing any type of these sick behaviors is wrong? I agree with Eireann on this one; if any sick person commits any of these behaviors, something is missing "up stairs", if you know what I mean. Obviously, they have a distorted view of what's right and what's wrong, which by the way, we all know the difference deep down inside....

 

[wickwoman]

Dear ZMan:

You said:

"I agree with Eireann on this one; if any sick person commits any of these behaviors, something is missing "up stairs", if you know what I mean. Obviously, they have a distorted view of what's right and what's wrong, which by the way, we all know the difference deep down inside...."

I'll let Eireann speak for himself, but I've seen his posts before and, based on past experience, I didn't get that meaning from what he said. I've argued subjective morality before and I'm not trying to do it now, though I supposed it could be relvant to the subject. I'm guessing Eireann's post was more along those lines. What say you Eireann?

 

[Eireann]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear ZMan:

You said:

"I agree with Eireann on this one; if any sick person commits any of these behaviors, something is missing "up stairs", if you know what I mean. Obviously, they have a distorted view of what's right and what's wrong, which by the way, we all know the difference deep down inside...."

I'll let Eireann speak for himself, but I've seen his posts before and, based on past experience, I didn't get that meaning from what he said. I've argued subjective morality before and I'm not trying to do it now, though I supposed it could be relvant to the subject. I'm guessing Eireann's post was more along those lines. What say you Eireann?

You're both right, in a way, as far as interpreting what I meant. Morality is culturally defined, after all. If someone from our culture, a culture that definitely believes it is wrong, and even has laws to that effect, were to practice the act, they would either have to be doing so with the knowledge that it is wrong according to the culture they are a part of (which would indicate severely deviant behavior) or they would be doing so without knowledge that it is wrong according to the culture (which would indicate mental illness). However, if it were someone from a culture that doesn't have any strictures against such things (is there such a culture?), then it really is a different story, because morality is very subjective.

 

[okinrus]

"going there" is not necessary in this circumstance in my opinion. Be it genetics or be it environment, the fact remains it is beyond the control of the homosexual person in question. Therefore, to assume God would condemn such a person is not reasonable IF you believe God is loving and reasonable.

Demons have the power to influence dreams to the point
that dream becomes the present. They have the power to talk
to you as if they are the voices of real people.

Homosexuality harms the participants. By engaging in this says to God that marriage was only there for pleasure.
By repeativly doing it, there is
habbit instilled that would make it almost impossible the
participants to engage in a normal marriage.

If there's been physical or they have been abused then the degree of the sin is lessened. Depending on the type of abuse they
might be blameless. But we have the right to say that
God condems this sin but not the person. Not even the
angles have the right to condem someone. To go to heaven
you must put God first.

 

[Eireann]

Originally posted by okinrus

Demons have the power to influence dreams to the point
that dream becomes the present. They have the power to talk
to you as if they are the voices of real people.

to prove that, you need to prove demons actually exist. Good luck.

Homosexuality harms the participants. By engaging in this says to God that marriage was only there for pleasure.

Where did you get that idea?

By repeativly doing it, there is habit instilled that would make it almost impossible the participants to engage in a normal marriage.

And why is that? Define a "normal marriage." "Normal" according to whom? According to straights? According to Americans? According to Christians? According to Hindus? According to Chinese?

But we have the right to say that
God condems this sin but not the person.

No, you have only the right to say you believe God condemns the sin. To say absolutely, you must be able to prove that God even exists to be able to condemn anything.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by wickwoman


To borrow from the Wiccans: "Insomuch as ye harm none, do as ye will."

That is the criteria I follow. If these two behaviors harmed none, then they would be acceptable. Since they do, then they are not acceptable. However, I don't believe in sin so I do not call them "sins" per say.

You are intentionally bringing up repulsive and disgusting behaviors to be insulting. I don't appreciate it. You call yourself a Christian. You are insulting and rude.

Wickwoman, perhaps bestality and necrophlia would be considered evil. Would you call these wicked practices "evil"?

Yes, I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and yes I'm judging you for being a wicked person.

 

[calvinistkid]

Wickwoman, you made the statement "you call yourself a christian", seeming to imply that you thought the person you were refering to was acting contrary to the Christian religion. Why? I have brought up this point with you before. Just because a statement does not make sense to you does not mean that it is inconsistent with Christian belief. I do not mean to be "insulting", but by what authority do you make this statement? By your own admonition you are not a Christian. In the future you might want to assume (unless blatantly proven otherwise) that the actual ADHERANTS of a religion know more about their own faith than you do.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Eireann:

Thanks for your post. I agree with most of what you've said. I'm a little unclear on subjective morality. Since I do not have any real set of guidelines to tell me what I should think (like the Bible, for instance), I do not always know for sure how I feel about every issue that arises. Like abortion, for instance. I don't think I'd personally have one, yet I don't feel that I should limit another person's right to do so. Logic tells me the world is overpopulated as it is and that the children (not given up for adoption) born to women who were not allowed to have abortions would be in loveless homes.

It's the same with many other issues that can be argued from both sides. I am capable of listening to both sides. Though, if I find a person bases their morality on something other than logical thinking, well, then I guess I'm not so reasonable. I am very prejudiced against stupid people.

Dear Calvinistkid:

You're right I shouldn't be angry at Freak for telling me I'm wicked and going to Hell. I should thank him. Thank you Freak for doing me the huge favor of telling me I'm damned. You know, you don't find friends like that often. As a matter of fact, as the old saying goes, "with friends like that, who needs enemies." And, if Freak hadn't told me, how would I have known? Oh, the 21 years I spent listening to red faced, screaming preachers I'm sure wasn't enough to convince me. It was the "loving" voice of Freak that really pushed me over the edge this time!

 

[Freak]

Wickwoman--

Your judgements are getting tiresome. Don't you ever settle down?

We love and care for you that is the reason we are sharing the good news that Jesus loves you deeply and wants to save you. He desires a personal relationship with you.

 

[wickwoman]

I'm not judging you Freak. You see, judgment implies punishment and I don't believe in punishment. My belief about your eternal demise is that you will continue to live more lives until you realize that God is wonderful and loving and only good and kind.

I don't believe you are influenced by evil, because I don't believe in Satan. I don't think you are demon possessed, I don't think you are a "witch." I'm not trying to save you from yourself because I know that what you are going through right now is necessary for your spiritual evolution and that everything is going according to plan.

I am trying to get you to pay me the same courtesy to me that I pay you. You deserve to exist because you are one of God's wonderful creatures. However, you are infringing on my right (and the rights of other people who are "different") to be who I am. That is the problem I have with you.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by wickwoman
I'm not judging you Freak. You see, judgment implies punishment and I don't believe in punishment. My belief about your eternal demise is that you will continue to live more lives until you realize that God is wonderful and loving and only good and kind.

I don't believe you are influenced by evil, because I don't believe in Satan. I don't think you are demon possessed, I don't think you are a "witch." I'm not trying to save you from yourself because I know that what you are going through right now is necessary for your spiritual evolution and that everything is going according to plan.

I am trying to get you to pay me the same courtesy to me that I pay you. You deserve to exist because you are one of God's wonderful creatures. However, you are infringing on my right (and the rights of other people who are "different") to be who I am. That is the problem I have with you.

There you go, perpetuating evil again, even though you claim beating a child to death, having sex with animals or dead people, and molestation are simply training exercises, and not evil.

Everbody "desrves" what they get in you're estimation.

So adult A, molests child B because child B is getting what it deserves because of a past life. So adult A will now have to "learn a lesson" in a future life for molesting (someone has to be the molestor), and may have to be molested by adult C or perhaps a reincarnation of child B. Yet you claim this is not a perpetuation of evil.

You are one sick wickwoman!

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Sozo:

I'm sorry your world is so frightening and meaningless. If those things happen and there is no meaning is it not even more terrible? Those things are terrible, but they are not meaningless and futile. The only hope we have is that in the end "all things will work together for good." By the way, that's in your Bible.