ECT Ye Shall Be Holy For I Am Holy

Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Here the LORD tells the Jews that they should be holy:

"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Lev.11:44).​

Would the LORD demand that anyone be holy if that person does not have the ability to be holy? Of course not. If a man is to be holy then he must have the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.

This idea is denied by the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

A holy and righteous God would not demand man to be holy unless it were in a man’s ability to do so. But the Calvinists deny this truth.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Here the LORD tells the Jews that they should be holy:
"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Lev.11:44).​

Would the LORD demand that anyone be holy if that person does not have the ability to be holy? Of course not. If a man is to be holy then he must have the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.

This idea is denied by the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

A holy and righteous God would not demand man to be holy unless it were in a man’s ability to do so. But the Calvinists deny this truth.
Click to expand...

"The Slaying of Reformed Theology (Calvinism)" Reply#1100
"Calvinism: Imputed Death?" Reply#2
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Here the LORD tells the Jews that they should be holy:

"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Lev.11:44).​

Would the LORD demand that anyone be holy if that person does not have the ability to be holy? Of course not. If a man is to be holy then he must have the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.

This idea is denied by the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

A holy and righteous God would not demand man to be holy unless it were in a man’s ability to do so. But the Calvinists deny this truth.
Click to expand...

It's sad, really, and so outside the Righteousness of God. God always gives men choices. Do this and things go well. Don't do this and things go badly. It would be a impossible for our great God to ask man to choose between right and wrong if he were unable to do so. That is ever the problem of preaching man is unable to choose rightly because of some inborn sin nature.

Even men without the indwelling Spirit have a god-given conscience. That is no small thing.

John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.​

Can man always choose rightly? Of course not, we live in a world of sin and corruption with the god of this world working hard to tempt us with the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, just as he did Jesus in the wilderness. Do this and I will bless you, "IF thine heart turn away so that you will not hear" says clearly it was very possible to hear what God was saying because there were many that did cross over the Jordan.

Deut. 3:15-18 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.​
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
This idea is denied by the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
​
Click to expand...

From the first passage quoted in those posts, (Deut 1:39), it is apparent the what they say is false; for how can there be any doubt that the following statement is a direct reference to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning? Yet look at what it says:

Deuteronomy 1:39 YLT
39 'And your infants, of whom ye have said, For a prey they are, and your sons who have not known to-day good and evil, they go in thither, and to them I give it, and they possess it;

Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

If you can view the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as a metaphor, for just a moment, then what it represents is the first time a person knowingly and willingly sins. That is why children are not culpable; for one must become developed enough to achieve self-realization, and for the conscience to begin to function properly: and perhaps not everyone can remember that first time they knowingly and willfully transgressed but everyone here should surely already know what it means to go against their own conscience and do something they know to be wrong. By the Way, The Nazarene took back the Garden, and has restored it for His brethren by leading and showing the Way, but that is an entirely different thread. :)
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
daqq said:
From the first passage quoted in those posts, (Deut 1:39), it is apparent the what they say is false; for how can there be any doubt that the following statement is a direct reference to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning? Yet look at what it says:

Deuteronomy 1:39 YLT
39 'And your infants, of whom ye have said, For a prey they are, and your sons who have not known to-day good and evil, they go in thither, and to them I give it, and they possess it;

Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

If you can view the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as a metaphor, for just a moment, then what it represents is the first time a person knowingly and willingly sins. That is why children are not culpable; for one must become developed enough to achieve self-realization, and for the conscience to begin to function properly: and perhaps not everyone can remember that first time they knowingly and willfully transgressed but everyone here should surely already know what it means to go against their own conscience and do something they know to be wrong. By the Way, The Nazarene took back the Garden, and has restored it for His brethren by leading and showing the Way, but that is an entirely different thread. :)
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What a great post! And i totally agree! We are not held responsible until we know sin.

As Jesus said to the pharasees, "because you say you see, your sin remains!" If we can't see, then we will be forgiven. Jesus also said to Pilate, "those who have handed me over to you have the greater sin" Pilate was sinning, but because the pharasees knew it was wrong to kill him and did it regardless they had the greater sin, even though they didn't do the act, because they know that God says thou shalt not kill!

God forgives us when we were in ignorance, but once we know the truth and we know God, then we are to do his will. If we carry on wilfully sinning, once we know God, it is then that we are held accountable. Paul said that we are judged on what we do, good or bad. We are to live right before God once we know the truth, and follow Jesus our perfect example!
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
marhig said:
What a great post! And i totally agree! We are not held responsible until we know sin.

As Jesus said to the pharasees, "because you say you see, your sin remains!" If we can't see, then we will be forgiven. Jesus also said to Pilate, "those who have handed me over to you have the greater sin" Pilate was sinning, but because the pharasees knew it was wrong to kill him and did it regardless they had the greater sin, even though they didn't do the act, because they know that God says thou shalt not kill!

God forgives us when we were in ignorance, but once we know the truth and we know God, then we are to do his will. If we carry on wilfully sinning, once we know God, it is then that we are held accountable. Paul said that we are judged on what we do, good or bad. We are to live right before God once we know the truth, and follow Jesus our perfect example!
Click to expand...

Did God save all the babes before the flood, or before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorah?

Do you believe all babies go to Heaven if they die before sinning?.

LA
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
It's sad, really, and so outside the Righteousness of God. God always gives men choices. Do this and things go well. Don't do this and things go badly. It would be a impossible for our great God to ask man to choose between right and wrong if he were unable to do so. That is ever the problem of preaching man is unable to choose rightly because of some inborn sin nature.

Even men without the indwelling Spirit have a god-given conscience. That is no small thing.

John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.​

Can man always choose rightly? Of course not, we live in a world of sin and corruption with the god of this world working hard to tempt us with the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, just as he did Jesus in the wilderness. Do this and I will bless you, "IF thine heart turn away so that you will not hear" says clearly it was very possible to hear what God was saying because there were many that did cross over the Jordan.

Deut. 3:15-18 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.​
Click to expand...
I agree with much of what you are saying, although i believe that through Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit we can overcome Satan and our flesh. Once we are born of God, Christ will strengthen us to overcome the world as he overcame, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And as we turn from the world and the lusts of our flesh, and the stronger we become in God, the more Satan can't touch us. The only way he can touch us, is if we turn back to our flesh and this world and let him in again, and then he can carry us away from God.

Also, Jesus was always tempted by Satan, not just in the wilderness, he was tempted right up until his last breath, but he never sinned once. Unlike us who do fall, but hopefully not willfully!
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
Did God save all the babes before the flood, or before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorah?

Do you believe all babies go to Heaven if they die before sinning?.

LA
Click to expand...
I believe that babies are innocent, they don't know sin!

Why? do you believe that an innocent baby would go to hell?
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Um what do you mean by answer the questions? You sound so condensing!

Tell you what, you answer me and then I'll answer you, do you believe that babies go to hell?
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
marhig said:
Um what do you mean by answer the questions? You sound so condensing!

Tell you what, you answer me and then I'll answer you, do you believe that babies go to hell?
Click to expand...

No babies will go to hell, but only some babies will go to Heaven.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The LORD who I worship will not send innocent infants to hell no matter who their parents are. If you think that He does you have no concept of the LORD of grace, in whom there is no darkness:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"(1 Jn.1:5).

Your mind is warped!
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I never said God would send any innocent infants to hell.

Pay attention.

Give proof of your beliefs that all babies will go to Heaven.

You have none, so you say I am warped.

LA
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
No babies will go to hell, but only some babies will go to Heaven.

LA
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Well I'm sorry LA i don't think for one minute that God would send an innocent baby to hell! Who made you their judge anyway? Why would God send innocent babies to hell? regardless of what their parents do? What a parent does is nothing to do with their baby! And you're not even saying you think it, but that they do. You can't know that, you don't know who will and who won't go to hell, you're not God!

And funnily enough, we were reading this yesterday and i just opened up at it.

John 15

But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father
 
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