ECT WHAT DOES MATT 28:19 REALLY SAYING !!

[DAN P]

Hi to all , and Matt 28:19 was alway a stumbling block early on for me and to many believers !!

It reads , Go ye therefore and teach all NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the FAYJER , and of the SON , and of the HOLY SPIRIT !!

#1, The first thing , is the CONTEXT in verse 16 , it is the 11 disciples !! How easy is that !!

@2 , Go YE is a verb inn the PAST TENSE of Jesus earthly Ministry !!

#3 , AND TEACH is also in the AORIST TENSE and speaks to Jesus earthly ministry !!

#4 Since Paul's ministry is no BAPTIZIO / PLACING into the Body of Christ , in 1 Cor 12:13 and Paul was sent to BAPTIZE , in 1 Cor 1:17 WHY will Grace believers have to BAPTIZE anyone ??

#5 , So what doe NATION / ENTHOS mean THEN in Matt 28:19 !!

#6 The 12 were to GO the there Jews brethren that were scattered all OVER the Roman Empired !!

The Greek word NATION / ETHNOS is a transliterted word with many meaning LIKE < RACE , GENTILES , HEATHEN , and Jewish Nation , how about that and here are the verse for that , in John 11:48 50 , verse 51 !!

Who has SEEN Jews preaching to GENTILES ??

Since Israel has been set aside in Acts 28:28 and in Luke 13:6-9 and Isa 6 and many other verses and passages !!

The one's that will preach are the 144,000 Jews and then they will preach to Jews during the first 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi to all , and Matt 28:19 was alway a stumbling block early on for me and to many believers !!

It reads , Go ye therefore and teach all NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the FAYJER , and of the SON , and of the HOLY SPIRIT !!

#1, The first thing , is the CONTEXT in verse 16 , it is the 11 disciples !! How easy is that !!

@2 , Go YE is a verb inn the PAST TENSE of Jesus earthly Ministry !!

#3 , AND TEACH is also in the AORIST TENSE and speaks to Jesus earthly ministry !!

#4 Since Paul's ministry is no BAPTIZIO / PLACING into the Body of Christ , in 1 Cor 12:13 and Paul was sent to BAPTIZE , in 1 Cor 1:17 WHY will Grace believers have to BAPTIZE anyone ??

#5 , So what doe NATION / ENTHOS mean THEN in Matt 28:19 !!

#6 The 12 were to GO the there Jews brethren that were scattered all OVER the Roman Empired !!

The Greek word NATION / ETHNOS is a transliterted word with many meaning LIKE < RACE , GENTILES , HEATHEN , and Jewish Nation , how about that and here are the verse for that , in John 11:48 50 , verse 51 !!

Who has SEEN Jews preaching to GENTILES ??

Since Israel has been set aside in Acts 28:28 and in Luke 13:6-9 and Isa 6 and many other verses and passages !!

The one's that will preach are the 144,000 Jews and then they will preach to Jews during the first 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation !!

dan p

Yep :thumb:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...Matt 28:19 was alway a stumbling block early on for me and to many believers...

Yes, it is.

Once one actually defines evangelism using only Scripture one will find that evangelism, properly and biblically defined, is a work carried out by those who have been called, examined, ordained, and commissioned to such a work (see Matthew 28, Acts throughout, Romans 10, and Ephesians 4 for some examples).

Paul intimates that a 'novice' should not even be considered for an officership in the Church. Necessarily, this would preclude a novice from doing the work of evangelism, which, properly understood, belongs the officers of the Church.

Should we send plumbers to do the work of a surgeon? No. Should we send infants to fight in warfare? No. It follows, then, do we send newborns, or those otherwise not fit, qualified, gifted for, to do the work of the officers of the Church? Let's hope not.

If everyone's a minister, no one's a minister. If I am a layperson, and I am being told that it is my responsibility to "proclaim the Gospel," and "evangelize," then that duty must be proven out in the Scriptures. Yet, no one can tie those two practices with what every man must, or is even authorized to do. The ministry of reconciliation belongs to ministers, and to place such a heavy duty upon souls unqualified for such is to require more than God has required.

If one is doing this so-called evangelism, and it includes the proclamation of the Gospel, and they appeal to the Great Commission for such a practice, then they'd better also be Baptizing, administering the Lord's Supper, and executing discipline on errant disciples, because all of that is bound up in Evangelism, that is, the Gospel Ministry.

All of the anecdotal stories and experiences in the world don't change what the Scriptures say about Christ's Kingdom, His ordering thereof, and our duty to execute His orders in the way He has ordered them. And it is especially egregious when ministers would press duties to laypersons that certainly are not their duties. Instead of taking this position to be something akin to those who hold as people who would leave men to drown, the more charitable assumption is that we like precision about biblical terminology because we serve a precise God, and there is some disagreement about terminology, as well as responsibilities to folks in the church, according to place and station.

Evangelism does not mean merely the proclamation of the Gospel, but entails all of those things that ministers do in the making of disciples. The onus is not upon me to prove why every Christian shouldn't be doing evangelism. The onus is upon that which is new founded that does not comport with the biblical definition of evangelism. If a man is perceived to be gifted in discussing the Scriptures, and he meets other Biblical qualifications, he should place himself under care of the church authorities and come under examination, etc. That is the biblical model.

Preaching is authoritative proclamation. Good preaching usually teaches, but its essential function is conveying authority. What is truly authoritative isn't so much the officer's commission (ordination)--although that is not insignificant. What is truly authoritative is when Holy Spirit accompanies his own Word in the mouth of His appointed agent to bring life to the dead--that's what He's promised. Preaching, that is to say heralding, is the whole package.

Can "anybody" preach? Well, that's like asking if "anybody" can lead men into battle. There are people who are natural leaders, and someone's innate gift-and-calling may propel him into the role of sergeant or lieutenant absent orders. So, regardless of what the brass says, he's the real deal. On the other hand, the insignia bestowed by or on behalf of higher authority is meaningful.

For more, see:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

AMR

 

[DAN P]

Yes, it is.

Once one actually defines evangelism using only Scripture one will find that evangelism, properly and biblically defined, is a work carried out by those who have been called, examined, ordained, and commissioned to such a work (see Matthew 28, Acts throughout, Romans 10, and Ephesians 4 for some examples).

Paul intimates that a 'novice' should not even be considered for an officership in the Church. Necessarily, this would preclude a novice from doing the work of evangelism, which, properly understood, belongs the officers of the Church.

Should we send plumbers to do the work of a surgeon? No. Should we send infants to fight in warfare? No. It follows, then, do we send newborns, or those otherwise not fit, qualified, gifted for, to do the work of the officers of the Church? Let's hope not.

If everyone's a minister, no one's a minister. If I am a layperson, and I am being told that it is my responsibility to "proclaim the Gospel," and "evangelize," then that duty must be proven out in the Scriptures. Yet, no one can tie those two practices with what every man must, or is even authorized to do. The ministry of reconciliation belongs to ministers, and to place such a heavy duty upon souls unqualified for such is to require more than God has required.

If one is doing this so-called evangelism, and it includes the proclamation of the Gospel, and they appeal to the Great Commission for such a practice, then they'd better also be Baptizing, administering the Lord's Supper, and executing discipline on errant disciples, because all of that is bound up in Evangelism, that is, the Gospel Ministry.

All of the anecdotal stories and experiences in the world don't change what the Scriptures say about Christ's Kingdom, His ordering thereof, and our duty to execute His orders in the way He has ordered them. And it is especially egregious when ministers would press duties to laypersons that certainly are not their duties. Instead of taking this position to be something akin to those who hold as people who would leave men to drown, the more charitable assumption is that we like precision about biblical terminology because we serve a precise God, and there is some disagreement about terminology, as well as responsibilities to folks in the church, according to place and station.

Evangelism does not mean merely the proclamation of the Gospel, but entails all of those things that ministers do in the making of disciples. The onus is not upon me to prove why every Christian shouldn't be doing evangelism. The onus is upon that which is new founded that does not comport with the biblical definition of evangelism. If a man is perceived to be gifted in discussing the Scriptures, and he meets other Biblical qualifications, he should place himself under care of the church authorities and come under examination, etc. That is the biblical model.

Preaching is authoritative proclamation. Good preaching usually teaches, but its essential function is conveying authority. What is truly authoritative isn't so much the officer's commission (ordination)--although that is not insignificant. What is truly authoritative is when Holy Spirit accompanies his own Word in the mouth of His appointed agent to bring life to the dead--that's what He's promised. Preaching, that is to say heralding, is the whole package.

Can "anybody" preach? Well, that's like asking if "anybody" can lead men into battle. There are people who are natural leaders, and someone's innate gift-and-calling may propel him into the role of sergeant or lieutenant absent orders. So, regardless of what the brass says, he's the real deal. On the other hand, the insignia bestowed by or on behalf of higher authority is meaningful.

For more, see:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

AMR

Hi and I hope that I have made my self clear , that this S0-CALLED GREAT COMMISSION is not for the Body of Christ , Not for us at all , do you agree with that STATEMENT ?

Neither is BAPTISM for today , nor GLOOSSIA / TONGUES nor Pentecost as for those who say it is for today !!

Anyone not teaching and does not PRACTICING GRACE is ACCURSED as Gal 1:8 and 9 !!

This means you have to believe Rom 16:25 and 26 , PERIOD !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for that link, AMR.

I of course, will differ somewhat with its' take on some of the passages of Scripture it bases its nevertheless very apt principles and assertions on.

Reading it, though, I was greatly reminded - by the issues it raises - of the same kinds of issues Mid Acts based assemblies not only have also found themselves often unjustly accused of being guilty of, but of how the leadership within Mad based assemblies have also viewed such accusations...

Not only as completely unfounded, but from a perspective (operating principles) much like Dennison laid out.

The typical Mad based assembly I have encountered is set up to function much like Dennison describes an assembly is meant to be set up to function.

Where the assembly is basically aware of the various roles involved in a very deliberately specific and clear manner.

The result being that Evangelism within Mad assemblies is viewed as being meant to function as a cross between lifestyle on the part of the many as they merely go about their living the Believer's life...and a much more intentional, scheduled, personal work on the part of a few trained to "do the work of an evangelist."

I really enjoyed that article, my dear brother in the Lord.

Reminded me...of home

 

[turbosixx]

#3 The Greek word the KJV poorly uses for "teach" is better translated make disciples.

mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I make disciples, make into disciples
Definition: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed.


Also, in the next verse they are told to teach but it's not this same Greek word. It's the actual word for teach as used in Matt. 5:19.

didaskó: to teach
Original Word: διδάσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: didaskó
Phonetic Spelling: (did-as'-ko)
Short Definition: I teach
Definition: I teach, direct, admonish



As far as baptism. There are about 12 conversions mentioned in scripture. Of the ones that have any detail, can you show me one where they were not baptized?

 

[DAN P]

#3 The Greek word the KJV poorly uses for "teach" is better translated make disciples.

mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I make disciples, make into disciples
Definition: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed.


Also, in the next verse they are told to teach but it's not this same Greek word. It's the actual word for teach as used in Matt. 5:19.

didaskó: to teach
Original Word: διδάσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: didaskó
Phonetic Spelling: (did-as'-ko)
Short Definition: I teach
Definition: I teach, direct, admonish



As far as baptism. There are about 12 conversions mentioned in scripture. Of the ones that have any detail, can you show me one where they were not baptized?

Hi and in Eph 4:5 the KJV translate it BAPTIZO , but in the Greek text it is BAPTIMA !!

Another one is in Rom 6:3 BAPTIZO / PLACED into Jesus DEATH !!

In Rom 6:4 we are we were BURIED with Him by BAPTIZO !!

Also 1 Cor 12:13 !!

1 Cor 10:2 !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

I don't understand your point. In those passages Paul is talking to those who have already been baptized. Jesus said make disciples baptizing them, the apostles did just that. They baptized those who beleived the word, Paul included.

 

[DAN P]

I don't understand your point. In those passages Paul is talking to those who have already been baptized. Jesus said make disciples baptizing them, the apostles did just that. They baptized those who beleived the word, Paul included.

nHi and what I am saying , is that BAPTIZO has 12 different English words for it TRANSLATION and only is Water Baptism and that was by John the Baptist ONLY !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

This isn't water baptism?


Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Or this?
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

 

[DAN P]

This isn't water baptism?


Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Or this?
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Hi and are you saying that this is water Baptism and that Water Baptism SAVES ??

DAN P

 

[jamie]

If everyone's a minister, no one's a minister.

Ephesians 4:11-12 NET It was he who gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ.​

 

[dodge]

Hi and are you saying that this is water Baptism and that Water Baptism SAVES ??

DAN P

If Christ is your Lord and King then you should OBEY Him. IF those claiming the name of Christ do NOT obey Him He is neither their Lord or King.

Christians are baptized because that is what Jesus said to do.

Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now you can try to talk that away and explain it away but Jesus said go to "all" nations teach and "baptize" them and to teach that you do not have to be baptized when you claim to be a follower of Jesus is nothing more than a lie and deception.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm not saying, I'm asking. Is the baptism mentioned in those two passages water?

 

[jamie]

I'm not saying, I'm asking. Is the baptism mentioned in those two passages water?

That's the only baptism there is. Jesus was baptized and he would have known if there were any others.

 

[turbosixx]

That's the only baptism there is. Jesus was baptized and he would have known if there were any others.

Yep, Paul said it himself, ONE baptism.

 

[jamie]

Yep, Paul said it himself, ONE baptism.

Yes, baptized in water by the Holy Spirit working through men.

John's baptism was not done through the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

Yes, baptized in water by the Holy Spirit working through men.

John's baptism was not done through the Holy Spirit.

That's the way I understand it.

It seems some people assume we believe the water has the power, but that's not it. Just as Naaman in II Kings 5 was cleansed by dipping in the Jordon. The water didn't cleanse him the Spirit of God did, but he had to dip in the Jordon to be cleansed.

 

[Lilstu]

http://www.trinitytruth.org/matthew28_19addedtext.html

 

[DAN P]

I don't understand your point. In those passages Paul is talking to those who have already been baptized. Jesus said make disciples baptizing them, the apostles did just that. They baptized those who beleived the word, Paul included.

Hi and here is why Gal 3:28 is IMPORTANT verses in Paul's letters !!

#1 The CONTEXT of Galatians is ONLY speaking to the Body of Christ and NOT to those under the Law or Apostles !!

#2 , Gal 3:28 says their IS NEITHER /ENI Jews " In Christ " and that is in the CONTINUOUS PRESENT TENSE OF THE dispensation of the Grace of God !!

#3 , In Matt 28:19 the CONTEXT and verse 16 says He is speaking to the 11 disciples and the Greek word ETHNOS has many meaning , as GENTILES , RACE , HEATHEN , JEWSIH NATION as John 11:48 where it says " Romans shall come and take away both our place and NATION, ETHNOS for it really means " Take away our Place and Jewish Nation !!

dan p