Theology Club: The Real Meaning of Predestination in the Bible

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
When we look closely at the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they do not speak of being presdestined to salvation:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).​

Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son."

It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just a couple of verses later we see that the inheritance will be received at the redemption of the purchased possession:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.
 
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When we look closely at the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they do not speak of being presdestined to salvation:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).​

Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son."

It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just a couple of verses later we see that the inheritance will be received at the redemption of the purchased possession:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.

You're wrong. Prophesy proves not only predestination, but also judgment and salvation. God is operating on a entirely different plane than you or I.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I was just following your lead.

No you are not following my lead. You proved nothing which Isaid here is in error:

When we look closely at the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they do not speak of being presdestined to salvation:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).​

Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son."

It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just a couple of verses later we see that the inheritance will be received at the redemption of the purchased possession:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
No you are not following my lead. You proved nothing which Isaid here is in error:

When we look closely at the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they do not speak of being presdestined to salvation:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).​

Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son."

It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just a couple of verses later we see that the inheritance will be received at the redemption of the purchased possession:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.

:thumb:
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, we must be saved for that.

But it does not exclude others from being saved.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, we must be saved for that.

But it does not exclude others from being saved.

So are you implying that people can be saved apart from being predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ ? Yes or No ?

Posted from the TOL App!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
No you are not following my lead. You proved nothing which Isaid here is in error:

When we look closely at the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they do not speak of being presdestined to salvation:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29).​

Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son."

It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and puts on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just a couple of verses later we see that the inheritance will be received at the redemption of the purchased possession:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.

False teaching, predestination is talking about to Salvation !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Ardima

New member
Predestination doesn't even have anything to do with a final "destination." The meaning of it has to do with a purpose not an ending location. It is about destiny (a purpose) not destination (a place). It would help if people would use a dictionary once in a while. It even says as much in Ephesians 1:11...
 

Cross Reference

New member
Predestination doesn't even have anything to do with a final "destination." The meaning of it has to do with a purpose not an ending location. It is about destiny (a purpose) not destination (a place). It would help if people would use a dictionary once in a while. It even says as much in Ephesians 1:11...

"According to the purpose", is what it says. So question you need ask yourself is, "what is the purpose that will bring me to the destination He has in Mind that I should be included because I am in Christ?"

OMT: Being the purposed destination for the born again of Him you should understand it is beyond the nominal understanding of salvation.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"According to the purpose", is what it says. So question you need ask yourself is, "what is the purpose that will bring me to the destination He has in Mind that I should be included because I am in Christ?"

No, that is exactly wrong. It is 'according to purpose', not 'according to the purpose'.

Here is the Greek and I have highlighted the relevant words:

οιδαμεν δε οτι τοις αγαπωσιν τον θεον παντα συνεργει εις αγαθον τοις κατα προθεσιν κλητοις ουσιν

So Ardima is right. And your sentence
what is the purpose that will bring me to the destination He has in Mind
makes no sense because purpose is the intended end point. Purpose doesn't bring you anywhere. Purpose is what's at the end not what's at the beginning. And you don't even need to be able to read the Greek text to know this. You just need common sense modern English. God called us according to purpose means that God called us with a purpose in mind and that purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of his son.
 

Cross Reference

New member
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"
(Eph.1:13-14).​

The Pentecostal Baptism by Jesus Christ. It is the "engagement ring".
 

Cross Reference

New member
No, that is exactly wrong. It is 'according to purpose', not 'according to the purpose'.

Here is the Greek and I have highlighted the relevant words:

οιδαμεν δε οτι τοις αγαπωσιν τον θεον παντα συνεργει εις αγαθον τοις κατα προθεσιν κλητοις ουσιν

So Ardima is right. And your sentence

makes no sense because purpose is the intended end point. Purpose doesn't bring you anywhere. Purpose is what's at the end not what's at the beginning. And you don't even need to be able to read the Greek text to know this. You just need common sense modern English. God called us according to purpose means that God called us with a purpose in mind and that purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of his son.


"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose/plan of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)


Apologies kindly accepted. And my sentence will make more sense when you read that way.
 

Cross Reference

New member
No, that is exactly wrong. It is 'according to purpose', not 'according to the purpose'.

Here is the Greek and I have highlighted the relevant words:

οιδαμεν δε οτι τοις αγαπωσιν τον θεον παντα συνεργει εις αγαθον τοις κατα προθεσιν κλητοις ουσιν

So Ardima is right. And your sentence

makes no sense because purpose is the intended end point. Purpose doesn't bring you anywhere. Purpose is what's at the end not what's at the beginning. And you don't even need to be able to read the Greek text to know this. You just need common sense modern English. God called us according to purpose means that God called us with a purpose in mind and that purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of his son.

God's purpose for my end is fatherhood: "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one." 1 John 2:13-14 (ESV)
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose/plan of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)


Apologies kindly accepted. And my sentence will make more sense when you read that way.

Nope. Wrong again.

11ἐν αὐτῷ,N ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἐκληρώθημεν προορισθέντες κατὰ πρόθεσιν τοῦ τὰ πάντα ἐνεργοῦντος κατὰ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ,

Your apologies are accepted. The purpose was:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

which was in the very next verse, which you couldn't be bothered to quote because proof texters who love to distort the Bible prefer to quote single verses or even phrases because it diverts their readers from examining too deeply in case they find out the fault in your argument. Predestinated doesn't mean that everything that happened to us was predicted in advance. It means that the inheritance that we, who first trusted in Christ, received was that we should be to the praise of his glory. Your version is just a twisted distortion of the real thing.
 

Lon

Well-known member
:think:

<DIR>Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

</DIR>
:think:
 

Cross Reference

New member

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself": Eph 1:9 (KJV)

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.[/I
Eph.1:12-14 KJV [Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.]

Well since you don't know what is the "Praise of His Glory", perhaps you can explain what is the"purpose" of "His good pleasure", for which we are given to "work out our own salvation"? __ that all Calvinists accuse as being nothing more than "works for initial salvation" by ignoring the "purpose" for which we are admonished to seek God to know Him, to know His ways, per John 17:3 KJV!!

Apology request, back on.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.

Sorry, which verse of the Bible is this from?

Give it up, CR, you haven't got a leg to stand on other than your own wish that the Bible say something that it doesn't in fact say. You may teach this stuff to willing sufferers but when you get a real audience like here on TOL, the standards of evidence rise considerably. We are not so gullible.
 
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