Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
Hall of Fame
I ask you again...
If you are not willing to reject a doctrine on rational grounds then on what grounds are you willing to reject it?
Or put another way...
Is any of your doctrine falsifiable and if so, on what grounds?
I keep asking because we are at an impasse until this question is resolved. You've already shown with your own words that you don't really know whether what you believe it true or not when you said this...
"If I were to accept that God is constrained to time, because He cannot exist outside of it, I'm saying that it is a concept that is proved on a metaphysical plane. My mind is already asking if it could be an incorrect perception of time that leads to this dichotomy. In other words, is it possible that this too could be the 'illogical question?'"
How would you ever hope to resolve the mystery if you accept a priori that man cannot think clearly?
The dichotomy is flawed, by the way, but not in the way I think you might suspect. The error comes from your still ingrained notion of time being a thing instead of an idea. You cannot live outside of an idea nor can you be constrained within it. Time does not exist and thus God neither exists outside of it nor is He constrained by it. Time is not a place or a location, it's just a concept, nothing more.
Resting in Him,
stipe said:Your words:
Well I think I see Stipe's point. You made the comment earlier about how the Open View is a very philosophically rigorous doctrine and so surmised that there would be some large percentage of our potential audience that would be left behind because of a lack of ability or desire to delve into such philosophic heavy lifting and you then asked how we planned to reach such people with the truth.Lonster said:I'm going to ask Clete for help here because I believe the misunderstanding needs correcting desperately. Clete: Are we talking about our Salvation in any way, shape, or form here?
And in case it is dubious on my part: Have I made a comment that you can see that would lead Stipe to this conclusion? If so, what was it? This needs serious clarity.
Lonster said:Are we talking about our Salvation in any way, shape, or form here?
Lonster, I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about someone's mere opinion about whether truths 1 & 2 are contradictory. What I'm talking about is when they are in fact contradictory.Lonster said:#1) This is somewhat incorrect as well. One truth 1 meets truth 2 and they are contradictory then: one of the truths are incorrect or one of the truths are perceived as incorrect. As a thinker and a theologian, I would want to ask way more questions and I see this as a good thing, but 'for you' it could become 'exasperating' because you already see the answer to this dilemma for you. This should make it pretty clear about the ground for provability: lots of questions, my logic is not so shallow as to concede an illogic for the very next questions are: why must this be true? Is his perception correct? Is his question meaningful? Is his conclusion correct? and so forth.
Not really no, it doesn't. I mean it sort of does but not in the way you are thinking. This statement of yours is one of those oddball statements that can seemingly only happen within Christian circles. What you've said is true but what you meant is not. Let me explain.#2)"If I were to accept that God is constrained to time, because He cannot exist outside of it, I'm saying that it is a concept that is proved on a metaphysical plane. My mind is already asking if it could be an incorrect perception of time that leads to this dichotomy. In other words, is it possible that this too could be the 'illogical question?'"Aha, this is important: I see logic as important because God is absolutely logical. HOWEVER, this does not make MY logic a pinnacle importance. I would say simply this: Christ is the imperative, NOT logic. "To Him who is able to keep you!" How do I know if I am kept in logic? Christ. Logic is important for understanding and helps us walk through the eggshells of broken doctrine to identify false teaching (God does put emphasis on our logic to be certain). I am completely moved by logic in this sense, but it is God who brings this and does this. Our arguments are terrific or I wouldn't be here, but I'd ask that you pray with me for the Holy Spirit to validate our thinking. Only He is the true source of any truth. I am quite easily swayed in logic where His logic is concerned, but I would definitely want to see this clearly from Him. Does that work?
I have no problem with your not having yet been convinced. Please understand that. It's just that I think your major hurtle here isn't so much an understanding of the philosophical issues or the science but rather your own ability to trust your ability to think. You like to point out verses of Scripture that you take to mean that we can't think clearly when all they really mean is that we don't understand fully; that there is a whole lot more to know than we can imagine. I recommend that instead of focusing on verses that artifically denigrate man to a position lower than he is actually in and focus instead on verses like Psalms 32:9 & 49:3, Proverbs 1:1-7, John 1, I Corinthians 2:16, Eph 5:17, Col. 1:9 & 2:2, Hebrews 11:1-3 and of course many others (indeed the entire book of Proverbs).I like the last idea here, but science is in disagreement still even understanding these ideas. What this means for me, is that either they are wrong, or we. IBecause it is so hot in debate, it is very difficult at this time, for me to ascertain God's truth concerning time, which is exactly why I'm in this discussion. I would like to discern as much of this for its real truth as God will enable us to understand it. When I say 'we' perhaps it is solved for you, but I think the doubts and concerns regarding it from my perspective will bring further enlightenment, because my doubts are not superficial, shallow or in denial.
Bob asked this and I think it helps me to organize my dishevling into a bit of coherence:bob b said:If I might chime in here, my opinion would be that anything that causes people to doubt that scripture is telling the truth could potentially affect Salvation.
Where does doubt about scripture stop? Or might it eventually cause some to doubt that Jesus is God, so that His atoning sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay the debt for all the sins of all humanity for all time?
I'm stunned! I am almost unable to believe what I've just read!
Why can't other Calvinists be this gracious and this intellectually honest?!
You are never allowed to leave TOL as long as you keep this attitude!
I just hope that you don't turn this higher math analogy into a hidey-hole that you jump into every time you run into a problem that you can't see your way around. I would hope that you would agree with me that a theology which only rarely resorts to this sort of "I don't get it - for now" position is superior to one that seems to hide out there all the time.
Resting in Him,
Wow.... I am really impressed by your humble attitude and thoughtful posts. :up:Lonster said:No, but when it does present itself as difficult for me to grasp, I've got to see it as a different level because it first assaults my logical sensibility. At that point I'm like "What am I gonna do here? Am I really going to chuck my reformed doctrine for this? I kind of love this doctrine, but if he is right or can prove he is right in gonna be in irrational mode for awhile again." In other words, I'm totally open to what God would correct in my life, the problem is that when we look at each other's doctrinal stance and go "How can this guy honestly believe this? It just doesn't make any sense." After that, I bring my other logic in to play. "This guy holds in salvation by grace, perseverance, not just emotional love but commitment to Jesus. And he honors the God of the Bible even if I see some of his theology as whack."