SCOTUS win for churches but caution advised

kmoney

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https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...nding-secularization-belief-religious-freedom

SCOTUS ruled that churches qualify for state money. Churches, beware.


But there’s a catch. Religious people and groups do deserve and are one step closer to receiving equal access to public programs, but if they are wise, they should avoid actually availing themselves of these programs in most cases. The experience of centuries has shown that far from sacralizing the state, public support of religious bodies secularizes the church.

There is abundant academic study and demonstration of the state-secularization model. Where there are established state churches, religious attendance is lower. Even in recent years, “deregulation” of religion has boosted religious participation, though not enough to offset a less religious cultural milieu. In colonial America, with its established, state-sponsored churches, just 18 percent of Americans were members of any church, and membership rose consistently until the 1970s; it remains well above 19th-century levels today.

Study of the 1996 welfare reform finds that government spending crowds out church giving by 20 to 38 percent. A study of several Western countries found that expansion of the welfare state largely explains the increase in secularization in recent years. Another study found that in European countries, compulsory schooling reduced religious expression even in countries with religious curriculum in public schools, like the United Kingdom.

But there’s a debate about what exactly is happening here. Does all government provision of benefits reduce religiosity? Or can some church-state partnership in public service provision benefit churches? That’s the classic worry of many secularists: that state support of religion will create religiosity, which might threaten the vital separation of conscience and state on which all peaceful pluralism depends.

However, a working paper released in February suggests that yes, indeed, government support secularizes religious practice, even very recently here in the United States. And the context is interesting, as it’s a study of state support of parochial schools via vouchers, an issue similar in its political meaning, if not in its practical details, to the Trinity case.

The authors of the study found that although an infusion of state money helped to prevent the closure of churches, “We fail to find evidence that vouchers promote religious behavior: voucher expansion causes significant declines in church donations and church spending on non-educational religious purposes” — that is, spending on missions, pastors, church social services, church maintenance, and so on. The effect of this crowding out is genuinely enormous: $230 million in voucher spending at Catholic schools in Milwaukee resulted in $60 million less in church donations, the authors found.

For secularists, voucher programs that help to prop up churches are very nearly the worst kind of church-state intimacy. For many advocates of religious education, meanwhile, state vouchers are seen as a solution to a whole host of problems — and, yes, as a way to promote religiosity. It turns out both sides may be wrong.

Strong government support for religion is a poison pill that offends the secular and defiles the sacred. It is true that denying a church the right to get the state to pay for its playground is mere prejudice written in law, which should be undone, if for no other reason than the appalling historical provenance of these laws. But it is also true that when a church becomes a client of the state, that church has bought itself a potter’s field.

It’s not clear what drives these effects. Maybe churches propped up by vouchers for their schools feel less urgency in soliciting donations or seeking new members, since vouchers pay the bills and “school families” fill the pews (especially if being a church member gives a discount). Maybe expanded schools divert pastoral and lay volunteer attention away from other religious activities like hospital visits or soup kitchens, depriving religious endeavors of vital human resources.

The exact mechanism remains murky, but the broader moral of this story is very clear. For religious people in America, the optimal environment is a maximum of religious liberty — and minimum of state discrimination along religious lines — alongside voluntary avoidance of state support. From hospitals to schools to social welfare, when the state steps in, true religion is usually pushed out.

The secularization of Northern Europe offers a cautionary tale
We can see today the end result of public support for religion in countries like Norway. In that Scandinavian paradise of secular social democracy, between 57 percent and 82 percent of the population, depending on your source, is formally affiliated with a Christian denomination (including 76 percent with the Church of Norway, the state church), but only about 3 percent attend church. In the United States, only about 50 percent of the population is formally affiliated with a Christian denomination, substantially lower than in the Nordic countries, yet somewhere between 15 percent and 40 percent are weekly attendees at church, indicating far greater religiosity.

I have friends who have been parishioners at Trinity Lutheran, and it is preposterous to think that if Missouri helps pay for a playground, that will be the end of true faith there. A playground really is just a playground. But this is how it begins: first with a playground or two, then grants for instructional buildings, then church maintenance, then vouchers for tuition, then direct grants — and pretty soon you’re a public school. And, oh, by the way, the state of Missouri isn’t okay with your pastor preaching this or that teaching of the church anymore. Oh, you want to preach that anyway? Nice school you got there. Shame if anything should happen to it.

So if your end goal for American religion is Scandinavian secularism then, sure, go ahead, throw money at the churches. The road to the death of American religion may well be paved with taxpayer dollars.




The author agrees with the SCOTUS decision (as do I) but there may be unexpected consequences for taking too much state funds.
 

Nick M

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If you are forced to go to school, then the tax payers have to pay for it. The reason the left opposes school choice is they don't give a damn about education, but about the redistribution of income. This is good. A private Christian school needing money for education is not the Congress establishing religion. The left knows this and does not care.

One day closer to AB, AB, and Rusha to the lake of fire. :banana:
 

aCultureWarrior

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Any church that is thinking about taking a cent of government money (especially federal) better talk to their local police agencies and find out what demands go along with those dollars.
 

Nick M

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Speaking of the lake of fire....

aCultureWarrior

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aCultureWarrior

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If you are forced to go to school, then the tax payers have to pay for it. The reason the left opposes school choice is they don't give a damn about education, but about the redistribution of income. This is good. A private Christian school needing money for education is not the Congress establishing religion. The left knows this and does not care.

One day closer to AB, AB, and Rusha to the lake of fire. :banana:

You have to feel sorry for these Trump lemmings; they're not smart enough to know that taking tax payer money to pay for church projects is "the redistribution of income".
 

aCultureWarrior

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Faith Perspectives: Government should not give tax money to churches

By allowing religious groups to apply to receive grants from the government, it puts government employees in the impossible position of having to choose which religious organizations to support with taxpayers’ money.
There is not infinite money, so not all applications will be successful: the government will invariably be giving money, directly, to some religious institutions and not others. This advantages some religious groups over others, and can fairly be seen as an endorsement of those religious groups by the government.
http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/...cle_bdb0e3d4-2197-5d17-9843-c1d2505ba0f5.html
 

rexlunae

New member
If it is illegitimate to exclude churches from receiving support from taxes on the grounds of being religious organizations, then it must be equally illegitimate to exclude them from paying taxes on the same grounds. Tax the churches, and then by all means make them eligible for tax subsidy. Let them justify their tax exemption on the line-by-line basis.

It seems to me that the court has rejected the concept of a categorically religious organization. If so, the implications are wide-ranging.
 

Angel4Truth

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https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...nding-secularization-belief-religious-freedom

SCOTUS ruled that churches qualify for state money. Churches, beware.


But there’s a catch. Religious people and groups do deserve and are one step closer to receiving equal access to public programs, but if they are wise, they should avoid actually availing themselves of these programs in most cases. The experience of centuries has shown that far from sacralizing the state, public support of religious bodies secularizes the church.

There is abundant academic study and demonstration of the state-secularization model. Where there are established state churches, religious attendance is lower. Even in recent years, “deregulation” of religion has boosted religious participation, though not enough to offset a less religious cultural milieu. In colonial America, with its established, state-sponsored churches, just 18 percent of Americans were members of any church, and membership rose consistently until the 1970s; it remains well above 19th-century levels today.

Study of the 1996 welfare reform finds that government spending crowds out church giving by 20 to 38 percent. A study of several Western countries found that expansion of the welfare state largely explains the increase in secularization in recent years. Another study found that in European countries, compulsory schooling reduced religious expression even in countries with religious curriculum in public schools, like the United Kingdom.

But there’s a debate about what exactly is happening here. Does all government provision of benefits reduce religiosity? Or can some church-state partnership in public service provision benefit churches? That’s the classic worry of many secularists: that state support of religion will create religiosity, which might threaten the vital separation of conscience and state on which all peaceful pluralism depends.

However, a working paper released in February suggests that yes, indeed, government support secularizes religious practice, even very recently here in the United States. And the context is interesting, as it’s a study of state support of parochial schools via vouchers, an issue similar in its political meaning, if not in its practical details, to the Trinity case.

The authors of the study found that although an infusion of state money helped to prevent the closure of churches, “We fail to find evidence that vouchers promote religious behavior: voucher expansion causes significant declines in church donations and church spending on non-educational religious purposes” — that is, spending on missions, pastors, church social services, church maintenance, and so on. The effect of this crowding out is genuinely enormous: $230 million in voucher spending at Catholic schools in Milwaukee resulted in $60 million less in church donations, the authors found.

For secularists, voucher programs that help to prop up churches are very nearly the worst kind of church-state intimacy. For many advocates of religious education, meanwhile, state vouchers are seen as a solution to a whole host of problems — and, yes, as a way to promote religiosity. It turns out both sides may be wrong.

Strong government support for religion is a poison pill that offends the secular and defiles the sacred. It is true that denying a church the right to get the state to pay for its playground is mere prejudice written in law, which should be undone, if for no other reason than the appalling historical provenance of these laws. But it is also true that when a church becomes a client of the state, that church has bought itself a potter’s field.

It’s not clear what drives these effects. Maybe churches propped up by vouchers for their schools feel less urgency in soliciting donations or seeking new members, since vouchers pay the bills and “school families” fill the pews (especially if being a church member gives a discount). Maybe expanded schools divert pastoral and lay volunteer attention away from other religious activities like hospital visits or soup kitchens, depriving religious endeavors of vital human resources.

The exact mechanism remains murky, but the broader moral of this story is very clear. For religious people in America, the optimal environment is a maximum of religious liberty — and minimum of state discrimination along religious lines — alongside voluntary avoidance of state support. From hospitals to schools to social welfare, when the state steps in, true religion is usually pushed out.

The secularization of Northern Europe offers a cautionary tale
We can see today the end result of public support for religion in countries like Norway. In that Scandinavian paradise of secular social democracy, between 57 percent and 82 percent of the population, depending on your source, is formally affiliated with a Christian denomination (including 76 percent with the Church of Norway, the state church), but only about 3 percent attend church. In the United States, only about 50 percent of the population is formally affiliated with a Christian denomination, substantially lower than in the Nordic countries, yet somewhere between 15 percent and 40 percent are weekly attendees at church, indicating far greater religiosity.

I have friends who have been parishioners at Trinity Lutheran, and it is preposterous to think that if Missouri helps pay for a playground, that will be the end of true faith there. A playground really is just a playground. But this is how it begins: first with a playground or two, then grants for instructional buildings, then church maintenance, then vouchers for tuition, then direct grants — and pretty soon you’re a public school. And, oh, by the way, the state of Missouri isn’t okay with your pastor preaching this or that teaching of the church anymore. Oh, you want to preach that anyway? Nice school you got there. Shame if anything should happen to it.

So if your end goal for American religion is Scandinavian secularism then, sure, go ahead, throw money at the churches. The road to the death of American religion may well be paved with taxpayer dollars.




The author agrees with the SCOTUS decision (as do I) but there may be unexpected consequences for taking too much state funds.

I agree. Seperation of church and state was designed to protect the church from the state. Its being used wrong today.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
If you are forced to go to school, then the tax payers have to pay for it. The reason the left opposes school choice is they don't give a damn about education, but about the redistribution of income. This is good. A private Christian school needing money for education is not the Congress establishing religion. The left knows this and does not care.

One day closer to AB, AB, and Rusha to the lake of fire. :banana:

Your schadenfreude is something else Nick. You likely don't know what that means but in short it's a term to describe nasty little pieces of work who derive pleasure from the suffering of other people. You exhibit love, empathy and compassion in no way whatsoever and are one of the most incredibly bitter and vile people I've ever encountered on a forum. There's no way I would derive joy from the interminable suffering of others - including yourself. As much of a prat as I consider you to be I wouldn't wish the same on you at all. Only those utterly devoid of love could. I don't know what happened to make you so cold and lacking in basic humanity but it seems to be a trait of zealots unfortunately. There's not much difference between the likes of you and the Phelps' clan...

:sigh:
 

Rusha

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Your schadenfreude is something else Nick. You likely don't know what that means but in short it's a term to describe nasty little pieces of work who derive pleasure from the suffering of other people. You exhibit love, empathy and compassion in no way whatsoever and are one of the most incredibly bitter and vile people I've ever encountered on a forum. There's no way I would derive joy from the interminable suffering of others - including yourself. As much of a prat as I consider you to be I wouldn't wish the same on you at all. Only those utterly devoid of love could. I don't know what happened to make you so cold and lacking in basic humanity but it seems to be a trait of zealots unfortunately. There's not much difference between the likes of you and the Phelps' clan...

:sigh:

Indeed ... what's rather bizarre (insofar as his false claim regarding my opposition to school choice) is that anyone here with the ability to read knows I attended private school from 7th through 12th grade. :plain:
 

Jonahdog

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If you are forced to go to school, then the tax payers have to pay for it. The reason the left opposes school choice is they don't give a damn about education, but about the redistribution of income. This is good. A private Christian school needing money for education is not the Congress establishing religion. The left knows this and does not care.

One day closer to AB, AB, and Rusha to the lake of fire. :banana:

given the current Republican plan to provide the wealthiest with a tax cut by reducing Medicaid spending your whining has less merit that it normally does.
The rest of your post is your normal right wing rant without any evidence.
 

kmoney

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If it is illegitimate to exclude churches from receiving support from taxes on the grounds of being religious organizations, then it must be equally illegitimate to exclude them from paying taxes on the same grounds. Tax the churches, and then by all means make them eligible for tax subsidy. Let them justify their tax exemption on the line-by-line basis.
Fair point.

It seems to me that the court has rejected the concept of a categorically religious organization. If so, the implications are wide-ranging.
I'm not sure what you mean here though. I don't see them as denying there are religious organizations. I suppose you could say that the type of organization doesn't matter and that the use of funds is what the legality hinges on.
 
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