Theology Club: MAD and the Book of Revelation

[Guyver]

So, I'm starting this thread to see how MAD people view the Book of Revelation. MAD people have a view that prophecy was suspended because Israel rejected the Messiah. I don't fully understand this view, but I don't reject it either. It seems difficult to ascertain from a plain reading of scripture....but at the same time that doesn't make it false. I guess I'm saying I have much more to learn about this MAD understanding.

Anyway, I have some serious problems with the Book....as any Bible believer should because of this...Deut 18.

"And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

So, this is clear. If a prophet speaks a word and it doesn't come to pass then the word is not from the Lord.

In Deuteronomy 14 we are told that if a prophet speaks a word to serve other gods, besides the Lord - even if the word comes to pass it's not from the Lord.

That prophets can speak falsely. Lamentations 3:37 Matthew 7:15 Matthew 24:11 Jeremiah 14:14

TBC

 

[Guyver]

The intro of Revelation states.....

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Notice...must shortly take place.....and for the time is near.

The ending of Revelation states.....

"Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”"

Again, notice....must shortly take place....and I am coming quickly.

And lastly, at the end again it says....

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

I bolded a couple of parts to make a point. First, the prophecy states that Jesus is coming quickly, next it makes a point that it is those who do His commandments that have access to the tree of life.

It then goes on to state at least twice more I believe...that the end of time is near, as Jesus is returning quickly.

TBC

 

[Guyver]

It says that Jesus will come quickly and judge everyone according to their works. Yet, other scriptures point out that salvation is provided from God by grace through faith, and not because of works of righteousness that we have done.

So, here's a reiteration of the issues I have here.

1. The Book of Revelation claims repeatedly that the things written here must come to pass in the very near future.

Two thousand years ago is not the near future.

2. God says that if someone prophecies in his name and it doesn't come to pass, it's not from him.

3. The writer of Revelation seems to be claiming that salvation is accomplished by obeying commandments rather than by God's grace and mercy.

So, my questions are....

1. Is Revelation a false prophecy that should be rejected as the Eastern Church did, and not included in the canon of scripture?

2. Is the Book of Revelation a prophecy ordained by God but was suspended with other prophecy and we just don't know about it?

3. Is there some other explanation for why the things written here did not come to pass?

4. Do you believe it righteous or unrighteous to ask these questions?

 

[DAN P]

It says that Jesus will come quickly and judge everyone according to their works. Yet, other scriptures point out that salvation is provided from God by grace through faith, and not because of works of righteousness that we have done.

So, here's a reiteration of the issues I have here.

1. The Book of Revelation claims repeatedly that the things written here must come to pass in the very near future.

Two thousand years ago is not the near future.

2. God says that if someone prophecies in his name and it doesn't come to pass, it's not from him.

3. The writer of Revelation seems to be claiming that salvation is accomplished by obeying commandments rather than by God's grace and mercy.

So, my questions are....

1. Is Revelation a false prophecy that should be rejected as the Eastern Church did, and not included in the canon of scripture?

2. Is the Book of Revelation a prophecy ordained by God but was suspended with other prophecy and we just don't know about it?

3. Is there some other explanation for why the things written here did not come to pass?

4. Do you believe it righteous or unrighteous to ask these questions?

Hi , and many believers have many interpretations as to what Rev 1:9 really means and here is one answer of that verse !!

Verse 9 , " Write therefore what things thou sawest , and what things they are , even what things are about to happen hereafter " a better translation .

The Campanion bible says this " Write therefore what things thou sawest , and what they are , what they signify , even what things are about to happen after these things ".

Mant believe that the first 3 chapters speak about the Body of Christ , but it is easy to rebut . Just look at verse 1:4 , where Israel will be KINGS and PRIESTS in the Millennium !!

The whole book speaks to the Great Tribulation !

Of the 7 assemblies spoken about in the first 3 chapters , all are in Asia , and one assembly in Revelation is yet to come INTO BEING , and that assembly is THYATRIA !!

Many believe that the DEPAPTURE/RAPTURE is seen in this book !!

dan p

 

[Guyver]

Thanks for responding.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't answer a single question that I asked or even the main point of the thread.

But thanks for trying.

 

[DAN P]

Thanks for responding.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't answer a single question that I asked or even the main point of the thread.

But thanks for trying.

Hi , so list your points one by one ?

dan p

 

[godrulz]

Without trying to answer all the points, there is a difference between prediction and prophecy (some prophecy is predictive, but not always).

A prediction is specific and will come true. A prophecy may be conditional, flexible, dual fulfillment, open to more than one way to fulfill it, etc.

I would disagree with MAD that Rev. 2-3 churches are future churches in the Tribulation (I think that is their view, at least STPs). In fact, they are extant first century churches, but MAD cannot say this since Revelation is John, not Paul.

We also have the issue of preterism vs futurism, etc.

I believe there is an interpretative key in Rev. 1:19. Rev. 1 is past to John; Rev. 2-3 is present with John, while Rev. 4-22 if yet future.

Daniel's 70th week also has a gap between the 69-70th week, the mystery of the indeterminate church age.

Some MAD are also Open Theist, so there is room for God to be flexible in His sovereignty as to detail and timing and contingencies.

Revelation will come to pass as written, but there are difficult interpretative issues.

Revelation is inspired Scripture, so we can trust it even if we do not fully understand it. Soon/quickly can be seen as relative or God's intention that changes (such as delaying His return because of Israel's rejection and desire for all men to be saved or have the opportunity to hear the gospel). Certainly, 2000 years for God is a blip compared to eternity. For us it is many life times. It seemed Jesus and Paul affirmed the imminent return of Christ, but God can delay it in His sovereignty. So, overall principles should be considered vs jumping on one word or phrase in a verse or two. The word time used (kairos) refers to a period of time, but does not specify how long. We are in the last days from the first century forward according to Acts, the last dispensation before His return (though we usually think of it only as the short time before His future coming). He is coming quickly or soon is true from the divine standpoint. When the living saints see His return, it will be suddenly/quickly. From our point of view and our short lives, it is relatively soon compared to God's eternal existence or even post-creation existence. I tell my kids I am coming soon, but many variables can make it non-specific or I can delay or be delayed.

Prophecy can have mountain peaks with the First and Second Coming of Christ being seen, but the intra-advent period being more of a mystery, indeterminate, flexible.

 

[Guyver]

I watched this show once, I think it was called moonshiners. It showed an old toothless mountain man about seventy years old dancing a hillbilly mountain jig. His feet were just a shuffling!

Anyway, GR you have stated that the scriptures can't contradict, I have showed that God himself is quoted as saying that a prophet speaking in his name has to say things that come to pass or they must be rejected.

If Revelation didn't have any time frame associated with it...I wouldn't say anything about it. But it does. It says soon. These things will happen soon.

I understand the point about time being suspended or nonexistent in the Spirit, and that's fine. But this prophecy has time associated with it and I can't make a case for any of the things in Revelation having happened yet.

Honesty requires honesty and apparently I'm the only one around here willing to be honest about the situation or even acknowledge the point.

 

[DAN P]

Hi , and you say it is about your HONESTY ?????


In the OT , God's people Perished for the LACK of KNOWLEDGE !!

#1 , The Age of Grace has lasted for 2000 years and counting !!

#2 , The Age of Grace will last " until the fulness of the Gentiles become in " as referenced in Rom 11:25 !!

#3 , Then , will God begin dealing with Israel , in what is called Jacobs Trouble for 3 1/2 years !!

#4 , The last 3 1/2 years will make a total of 7 years !!

#5 , At the end of the Great Tribulation , will begin the Judgment of the Nations as told in Matt 25 .

#6 , Then the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones ruling Israel , which will last for 1000 years !!

#7 , Satan who was bound at the beginning of the 1000 years will be set Free , but thrown into the Lake of Fire .

#8 , Then will begin the White Throne Judgment in Revelation !!

Then here is the last dispensation , that is called the " Dispensation of Fulness of time in Eph 1:10 !!

It is Knowledge and understanding BY the following ;

#1 , CONTEXT

#2 , DISPENSATIONAL

#3 , HISTORICAL SETTING

#4 , GRAMMERICALLY

And 2 Tim 2:15 and Phil 1:10 , where the word Excellant means the words that are DIFFERING !!

DAN P

 

[Guyver]

Let's just say that everything you just said is true DanP.

It still doesn't address a single point I've made, in fact it avoids the points altogether.

But let's just say that the prophecy deals with events after the time of the Gentiles are complete. Why didn't it say that?

Or why didn't it give no time frame?

That would have been fine. But that's not what it says. It actually speaks against the times of the Gentiles by saying that the things written therein will happen in the near future. That near future being somewhere around the first century.

 

[Nick M]

Anyway, I have some serious problems with the Book....as any Bible believer should because of this...Deut 18.

"And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

So, this is clear. If a prophet speaks a word and it doesn't come to pass then the word is not from the Lord.

Pay attention to the details.

Are God's promises conditional?

Regarding earthly Kingdoms, yes.

Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

 

[way 2 go]

So, I'm starting this thread to see how MAD people view the Book of Revelation. MAD people have a view that prophecy was suspended because Israel rejected the Messiah. I don't fully understand this view, but I don't reject it either. It seems difficult to ascertain from a plain reading of scripture....but at the same time that doesn't make it false. I guess I'm saying I have much more to learn about this MAD understanding.


TBC

key
body=uncircumcised
kingdom=circumcised

MAD would look at who wrote it ? John did so that means he is addressing the circumcision being one of the twelve

next

who is it written to ? kingdom rev 4:4 5:10 again addressing the circumcision

was the kingdom cut off at the writing of revelation? no

Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

did that happen to the church in Smyrna ? yes

when the fullness of the gentiles is come we have the rapture then
revelation continues.

just like to add nineveh was not destroyed because they repented
revelation was postponed because Israel didn't repent.
God changed his plan because of how people behaved

 

[Guyver]

Pay attention to the details.

That's pretty heavy in one sense Nick. And, although you and I have had many differences in the past.....I've got to be honest about my own beliefs.

I just snipped a really long and philosophical post. Maybe I should just get to the point instead.

If MAD isn't right about the suspension of prophecy; then the Bible has issues. The Bible having issues is a whole other issue in itself.

Now, maybe all dispensationalists share this view and it's not just common to MAD, IDK because I've only been studying it for a short time....and not that wholeheartedly. I've spent so many years of my life just reading the Bible and believing what the scriptures say and trying to come to my own understanding that it's hard to break out of that mold.

Anyway....off the top of my head; I can't think of a better explanation for the book of Revelation than the one that MAD suggests. Prophecy was suspended and God made a change in plans. Otherwise, Revelation would have already happend, or it was a false prophecy.

And, until I find a better explanation and one that makes all the pieces fit; like what Jesus said to the disciples about asking for anything in his name and him doing it....then I'll be sticking with this one and trying to learn some more about it.

 

[Lighthouse]

1. Define "soon."
2. Jonah's prophecy regarding Nineveh didn't come to pass. Of course based on God's own words prior that one certainly gets a pass.
3. I have no reason to believe these things will not come to pass, however I do not believe they will happen exactly as recorded since it was mostly symbolic visions.

 

[godrulz]

Revelation can and should be taken in the normative, literal sense which still recognizes symbols. A subjective allegorical approach leads to wrong views.

From an Open Theism perspective, God is able to bring things to pass that He declares (Is. 46; 48). This involves ability, orchestration, intelligence, not omnicausality nor prescience/foreknowledge, especially not exhaustive/definite.

Much of Revelation is somewhat general, so could be fulfilled apart from every secondary detail being needed or known. The judgments, Second Coming, binding of Satan, etc. are within God's unilateral ability.

We don't have to make it vague and play the symbol only card since much can be taken at face value, even without foreknowledge.

Prediction is more specific, but prophecy can be more general with more than one way to skin a cat. We can expect an Antichrist, but that does not mean God knew His name in the first century (did not exist).

 

[Nick M]

If MAD isn't right about the suspension of prophecy; then the Bible has issues.

I don't know what you are talking about. You should know by now there isn't any "MAD doctrine". Dispensationalists simply don't apply everything in the Bible to themselves. I am not going to build a 300 cubit long ark either.

The Kingdom was conditional.

Jeremiah 18

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

I've spent so many years of my life just reading the Bible and believing what the scriptures say and trying to come to my own understanding that it's hard to break out of that mold.

I honestly find that hard to believe. I just go with what it says, not what I was shown. I was shown a bunch of crap that did not apply to me. I found out when I read "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey used to say.

Unless you mean the mold of what you were taught, rather than what you are clearly reading in the Bible on your own.

 

[Guyver]

I don't know what you are talking about. You should know by now there isn't any "MAD doctrine". Dispensationalists simply don't apply everything in the Bible to themselves. I am not going to build a 300 cubit long ark either.

No, I didn't know that. The reason I said the Bible has issues if Mad is incorrect is because of the time frame associated with the Revelation. It is said to happen soon. It didn't.

So, it is either a false prophecy or the prophecy was suspended. I don't understand why God would allow the Apostle John to write an entire book for the Bible that wasn't going to happen. You say it's because the kingdom was conditional.

I don't have a better explanation. So I guess I'll just leave it at that. Otherwise I've got to start pulling the Bible apart the way that Martin Luther wanted to.

 

[Nick M]

You say it's because the kingdom was conditional.

No, God said it was conditional through Jeremiah.

 

[Nick M]

Anyway, GR you have stated that the scriptures can't contradict, I have showed that God himself is quoted as saying that a prophet speaking in his name has to say things that come to pass or they must be rejected.

It is important to him because he is in fact a charlatan and a liar. He preaches a false gospel (circumcision) that requires him to endure to the end. He is self righteous in his mind.

This is why he wants "one gospel" even though the Bible has much more than one piece of good news (gospel). You can prove the circumcision could be cut off for performance. To him, James saying faith is made perfect by the flesh, and Paul saying faith can not be made perfect by the flesh are really saying the same thing. There can not be a contradiction for his gospel of good works.

 

[godrulz]

It is important to him because he is in fact a charlatan and a liar. He preaches a false gospel (circumcision) that requires him to endure to the end. He is self righteous in his mind.

This is why he wants "one gospel" even though the Bible has much more than one piece of good news (gospel). You can prove the circumcision could be cut off for performance. To him, James saying faith is made perfect by the flesh, and Paul saying faith can not be made perfect by the flesh are really saying the same thing. There can not be a contradiction for his gospel of good works.

I may be ignorant and wrong, but that does not make me a liar/deceiver (knowing something is wrong, but peddling it as true; I fully believe what I say). I reject your two gospel system because your view of a circumcision gospel post-cross must be false, a denial of His finished work because it adds works to His blood and grace. To accuse me of believing a circ gospel that you invent is ridiculous. I fully and frequently defend a Pauline gospel of grace/faith alone, not works. You are the one with a false two gospel view, not me. If there are two gospels, we all reject the circ gospel in favor of the uncirc one, so your accusation is false either way.

What you are confusing is justification, sanctification, glorification, perseverance. You do this because you must retain your pet error at all costs and lack true biblical, theological, doctrinal understanding (you fell for a false fad). Calvinists and Arminians fully affirm Reformational justification views (the gospel issue), while disagreeing about OSAS/POTS (free will theists usually reject your OSAS view, while deterministic keep it to make TULIP consistent). So, you fail to see that faith/continuance in the faith is biblical, and wrongly make a straw man accusation that I am saying we start with faith and endure by works (instead of just continuing to believe vs revert to unbelief...neither is a work...so you make the Calvinistic mistake of thinking free will faith is a work, instead of a condition to receive grace...no works...useless in light of His perfection).

Your argument that we don't build arks is lame. There is a big difference between OT issues for Israel such as eating shrimp and proposing a true and false gospel (you call them two true ones despite Paul's teaching in Gal./Rom.) post-cross.

Like Luther, you misunderstand the Genesis quotes and different contexts of James vs Romans. The same Spirit inspired both and they are both consistent with Pauline teaching on justification, works, perseverance.

The problem is with your bad exegesis and bad theology, not with my view that is not what you misrepresent it as (straw man).

You lack integrity, credibility, critical thinking ability.

If you are not KJV-only, you might want to add that to your list of indefensible beliefs. It will seal the deal for dope of the year.

The kingdom is unconditional (God promised it and nothing will stop it), but who will be in it and when it will be manifest has a conditional element.