Christianity Facing Similar Chain of Events Leading to Radicalization as Islam

[Morpheus]

I probably should not start this since my time is probably too limited to respond properly, but here goes.

Up until the early 1980s Christian evangelism was done through personally teaching about Christ and through big events like revivals and others like the Billy Graham Crusades. Back then the process went something like this:

1) Learn about and accept Christ, then

2) The indwelling of the Spirit led us to reach out to the community, then

3) The Christian community would deal with the issues of the day.​

In the mid 80s Americans stopped wanting to listen to the message of Christ, so evangelists changed their strategy, not just coincidentally guided by the advent of more political-based groups like the Moral Majority. Since people were more concerned about how to fit in, evangelists developed community based evangelism. The small groups movement meant that people would invite neighbors to visit the groups, making them feel included. The pattern changed to look like:

1) Community, join to fit in, then

2) Learn about and accept Christ, then

3) The Christian community would deal with the issues of the day.​

Then somewhere around the turn of the century people became more interested in issues, so evangelism again changed to reach out with cause-based evangelism. People would be invited to join some cause first and the pattern now looks more like:

1) Draw people to a cause, then

2) Involve them in a community of people devoted to dealing with that cause, then

3) Tell them about Christ and how Christ cares about that cause, and get them to accept him.​

It may seem innocuous until you first notice that Christ gradually moves down the list. He has gone from being the end, where community and issues are only means motivated by that end, to now the issues are the end and Christ is only a means to meet that end. The issues are viewed as of ultimate importance, and if some act tied to that issue somewhere conflicts with Christ's teaching, the issue wins and Christ's teaching is shoved aside. This is no longer Christianity, but an aberrant distortion of Christianity posing as true faith.

We have allowed a hijacking of Christianity by people with political motives. They claim a faith; they quote scripture; they pull up convenient passages, all to advance their political ends, and suck in the milk-drinkers by their deceptions.

This is similar to what Islamists, originating from Egypt and spreading out from there, did beginning earlier in the 20th Century. I am by no means an apologist for Islam, but I do recognize that there is no Islamic consensus, with multiple sects, and multiple divisions in each sect. I also recognize the difference between the several mainstream denominations and the aggressive, political-based aberration of Islamism.

I am not so concerned with the intricacies of Islam and it's aberrations; I only am using them as an example to warn Christians of our similar growing problem. If we do not get back to preaching Christ first, the message, our commission, will get lost in a blur of fanaticism. Just how many generations are we willing to lose to lies.

Suggested (dry) reading = "God In The Dock" by C. S. Lewis

 

[Doom]

As I've said for over 30 years now - Morality (Law) and Righteousness (Grace) have nothing to do with one another. Yet, Christians will continue mixing the two and thus continue destroying the gospel.

 

[Morpheus]

As I've said for over 30 years now - Morality (Law) and Righteousness (Grace) have nothing to do with one another. Yet, Christians will continue mixing the two and thus continue destroying the gospel.

This may be a bit off topic, but is well worth discussing. This is a heresy that began shortly after Christ's resurrection by the Gnostics separating the mind and body. We have scriptures where Paul was confronting the heresy.

The book of James and John's writings (along with numerous other passages) would disagree with you, but I understand the viewpoint. Grace has for too long, by some, been thought of as granting liberty to live however you please. Yet if works consistent with your faith are not evident in your life then it is evidence that your faith is worthless. "The demons also believe and shudder". In fact they are sure of it. Just saying so does not assure salvation. Or putting it another way, if your "faith" is not strong enough to bring about obedience, then it is not true faith, it is trying to grab a free insurance policy. By grabbing a handful of verses out of context one can make the Bible say anything. We can't take what we like and ignore anything that is inconvenient.

James 2 14-26

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matthew 5:16

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 14 15-24

15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Role of the Spirit
16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 [c]After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

1John 1:5-10

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

And there are many more. Typically what the NT talks about "saved by faith and not works" it means one of two things. The first indicates that we are now under the new covenant and that the old covenant is nullified, therefore we are can no longer claim that we can be saved by following the works of the Law. The second case is that we are saved by our faith through grace, yet the full context of the NT teaches that faith, not simply belief, means that we believe what Christ taught to the point of obedience. A state of disobedience (not simply occasional acts of disobedience) indicates that we do not truly love Christ.

 

[Doom]

So then, you disagree with your opening post? Double-minded much?

 

[Morpheus]

So then, you disagree with your opening post? Double-minded much?

No, there is no disagreement. The Gnostics divided body and mind, and their influence affected early Christianity in the first century. Several places Paul confronted the heresy, but none better than Romans 6.

Romans 6

Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become [a]united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old [c]self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be [d]done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is [e]freed from sin.

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [f]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting [g]the members of your body to sin as [h]instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin [j]resulting in death, or of obedience [k]resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that [l]though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, [m]resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, [n]resulting in sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what [o]benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

This is just a separate, and much older, issue from the recent developments that affect the whole U.S. church.

 

[musterion]

I won't argue your first two progressions. But this one...

1) Draw people to a cause, then

2) Involve them in a community of people devoted to dealing with that cause, then

3) Tell them about Christ and how Christ cares about that cause, and get them to accept him.

...is exactly what the "Christian" Left has always done, and almost always minus the part in red.

Didn't see that coming, didya.

 

[patrick jane]

so, do you think there will be Christian terrorits ? or labeled such, to create a war against and hatred towards Christianity ? atrol:

 

[Doom]

We have scriptures where Paul was confronting the heresy.

And yet, you quoted none of them.

Your attempt to equate the "new creation" that has been MADE holy, righteous, blameless, and complete with Gnosticism simply reveals your ignorance of both.

 

[Nazaroo]

I probably should not start this since my time is probably too limited to respond properly, but here goes.

Up until the early 1980s Christian evangelism was done through personally teaching about Christ and through big events like revivals and others like the Billy Graham Crusades. Back then the process went something like this:

1) Learn about and accept Christ, then

2) The indwelling of the Spirit led us to reach out to the community, then

3) The Christian community would deal with the issues of the day.​

In the mid 80s Americans stopped wanting to listen to the message of Christ, so evangelists changed their strategy, not just coincidentally guided by the advent of more political-based groups like the Moral Majority. Since people were more concerned about how to fit in, evangelists developed community based evangelism. The small groups movement meant that people would invite neighbors to visit the groups, making them feel included. The pattern changed to look like:

1) Community, join to fit in, then

2) Learn about and accept Christ, then

3) The Christian community would deal with the issues of the day.​

Then somewhere around the turn of the century people became more interested in issues, so evangelism again changed to reach out with cause-based evangelism. People would be invited to join some cause first and the pattern now looks more like:

1) Draw people to a cause, then

2) Involve them in a community of people devoted to dealing with that cause, then

3) Tell them about Christ and how Christ cares about that cause, and get them to accept him.​

It may seem innocuous until you first notice that Christ gradually moves down the list. He has gone from being the end, where community and issues are only means motivated by that end, to now the issues are the end and Christ is only a means to meet that end. The issues are viewed as of ultimate importance, and if some act tied to that issue somewhere conflicts with Christ's teaching, the issue wins and Christ's teaching is shoved aside. This is no longer Christianity, but an aberrant distortion of Christianity posing as true faith.

We have allowed a hijacking of Christianity by people with political motives. They claim a faith; they quote scripture; they pull up convenient passages, all to advance their political ends, and suck in the milk-drinkers by their deceptions.

You made a great case here for MODERNISM, not fanaticism,
hijacking Christianity.

In your scenario, Westboro (following 19th century doctrine)
is truer than any modern Evangelism or Pentecostal nonsense.

But it really seems you missed the forest for the trees.

There is nothing wrong with Jesus being last in either the
temporal sequence or the order of importance.

Its precisely the role He would have chosen, as the most humble person on earth.

He came to serve, not serve Himself, and until He actually returns in
power and glory, presumably at a time of His own choosing,
His deity and glory will remain a secret of the Christians.

You can't simultaneously worship a teacher who chose the lowly path,
and try to force Him to the throne of Deity in a poorly timed fashion.

If you really wanted to be authentic to Jesus,
you'd heed His advice and take the lowly place of servant,
FOLLOWING HIM, and relax about Jesus Himself as a 'priority'.

He'll make Himself known in due time.

Suggested (dry) reading = "God In The Dock" by C. S. Lewis

C.S. Lewis is himself one of the most lukewarm examples of Christian leadership.
Like Tolkein, he was an armchair theorist, not a trench-fighter.

I'm glad he struggled with the NT. It kept him out of trouble with
the rampant homosexuality on English campuses.

Not really great Christian literature, unless you're a fawn or a hobbit.

P.S. why don't you respond to my reply in the other thread?

 

[Nazaroo]

The first indicates that we are now under the new covenant and that the old covenant is nullified, therefore we are can no longer claim that we can be saved by following the works of the Law.

Another fallacy screaming for correction.

The Old Covenant wasn't nullified. It was never the property of Gentiles.

It was broken, individually and sometimes nationally,
but God was able to renew His people and their hope.

The Old Covenant was never meant to give Eternal Life,
or a Resurrection, or any other magical gifts, except reasonable prosperity,
peace, and a long mortal life.

No Jew ever claimed that keeping the Law gave Eternal Life.
This was a separate promise or doctrine that many religions and cultures
shared, but is not found in the Torah or even the Tanack,
except as future hints (e.g., Enoch).

The New Covenant then was NEW, in both its promises,
and in its scope (all nations).

Whatever arguments Paul and Judaizers had in the Dim Times,
those are hardly relevant now.

Your typical "Protestant" view of the Law and Judaism
grew out of earlier Roman Catholic nonsense.

The second case is that we are saved by our faith through grace,

Since you haven't demonstrated that you know that "faith" means,
this is a vague an meaningless statement.

 

[The Barbarian]

Morpheus writes:
It may seem innocuous until you first notice that Christ gradually moves down the list. He has gone from being the end, where community and issues are only means motivated by that end, to now the issues are the end and Christ is only a means to meet that end. The issues are viewed as of ultimate importance, and if some act tied to that issue somewhere conflicts with Christ's teaching, the issue wins and Christ's teaching is shoved aside. This is no longer Christianity, but an aberrant distortion of Christianity posing as true faith.

We have allowed a hijacking of Christianity by people with political motives. They claim a faith; they quote scripture; they pull up convenient passages, all to advance their political ends, and suck in the milk-drinkers by their deceptions.

This is similar to what Islamists, originating from Egypt and spreading out from there, did beginning earlier in the 20th Century. I am by no means an apologist for Islam, but I do recognize that there is no Islamic consensus, with multiple sects, and multiple divisions in each sect. I also recognize the difference between the several mainstream denominations and the aggressive, political-based aberration of Islamism.

Musty replies:

...is exactly what the "Christian" Left has always done, and almost always minus the part in red.

Yep. Doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum does it. Doesn't matter if the center does it. The result is a corruption of His message, and ultimately evil and horror. Your way, or the left's way, it really doesn't matter.

Didn't see that coming, didya.

 

[Morpheus]

And yet, you quoted none of them.

Your attempt to equate the "new creation" that has been MADE holy, righteous, blameless, and complete with Gnosticism simply reveals your ignorance of both.

You didn't notice post #5, Romans 6? It was a response to you.

 

[Morpheus]

I won't argue your first two progressions. But this one...

...is exactly what the "Christian" Left has always done, and almost always minus the part in red.

Didn't see that coming, didya.

Label it however you like. Remember not to confuse fiscal and political liberalism with social and Christian liberalism. One can be a Christian conservative while being a social and fiscal liberal. In fact, Jesus was a social and fiscal liberal. It was political conservative groups like the Moral Majority that blurred the lines. That is kinda the point. There were also Christian liberals about the same time that were doing the same thing. We just left ourselves vulnerable to both. I remember when, during the Reagan years, the Republican party also shifted part of their resources from precinct committees to church members infiltrating local congregations to disseminate their agenda, blurring the lines even more. They conferred with the Moral Majority to arrange it.

so, do you think there will be Christian terrorits ? or labeled such, to create a war against and hatred towards Christianity ? atrol:

I can't say for sure, but personally I believe so. We already have examples of so-called Christians blowing up abortion clinics and shooting the doctors. Westboro Baptist comes close. The Klan claims to be Christian, but of course they got a head start. Yet the more we allow action groups to hijack Christianity to recruit members, the more the likelihood.

 

[Morpheus]

Another fallacy screaming for correction.

The Old Covenant wasn't nullified. It was never the property of Gentiles.

It was broken, individually and sometimes nationally,
but God was able to renew His people and their hope.

The Old Covenant was never meant to give Eternal Life,
or a Resurrection, or any other magical gifts, except reasonable prosperity,
peace, and a long mortal life.

No Jew ever claimed that keeping the Law gave Eternal Life.
This was a separate promise or doctrine that many religions and cultures
shared, but is not found in the Torah or even the Tanack,
except as future hints (e.g., Enoch).

The New Covenant then was NEW, in both its promises,
and in its scope (all nations).

Hebrews 8:7-13

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[f]When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
[g]I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From [h]the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.

Whatever arguments Paul and Judaizers had in the Dim Times,
those are hardly relevant now.

Your typical "Protestant" view of the Law and Judaism
grew out of earlier Roman Catholic nonsense.




Since you haven't demonstrated that you know that "faith" means,
this is a vague an meaningless statement.

You are walking on very thin ice here. So today some scripture is irrelevant? No wonder you have such a propensity to cherry-pick scriptures to fit your lifestyle.

Hebrews 10:23-36

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Christ or Judgment
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive [j]what was promised.

And again, you still claim that works are still irrelevant? And again:

Matthew 25:31-46

The Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here again, Christ ties works to salvation. The goats will think that they have already made it, but their failure to show compassion and love through works for others will mean eternal punishment. Only those willing to show their faith and love for Jesus through obedience and acts of love toward their neighbors will be found righteous by the Judge.

Now I suppose that you find the teachings of Jesus, a 1st Century Jew, irrelevant as well. And time does not allow me to quote all of his teachings. Maybe you might start with the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7. It is just full of instructions about how to go about working out our faith.

 

[Doom]

You didn't notice post #5, Romans 6? It was a response to you.

I can quote Romans 6 and know that it fully supports what I said. You are going to have to do a bit better unwrapping it to support your position. It has nothing to do with works or morality.

 

[Morpheus]

I can quote Romans 6 and know that it fully supports what I said. You are going to have to do a bit better unwrapping it to support your position. It has nothing to do with works or morality.

Well actually it does specifically command works and morality, especially in verses 15 and following, and especially 16. Yet that aside, I have quoted numerous references building a strong case showing how true faith must be demonstrated (with works), not simply professed. And those references are just the tip of the iceberg. A massive portion of the NT is devoted to instruction about behavior and obedience. Anyone who disregards that much scripture is simply looking for a license to sin. If you read just the scriptures I've quoted so far and continue to assert that works are unnecessary you are being willfully dense, lacking faith enough to leave your master of sin behind and obey your new master. Faith must include choosing Christ over not only the world, but over yourself. From here on the choice is yours. Time for me to wipe the dust from my sandals.

Time to get back to watching Ohio State destroy Oregon.

 

[Morpheus]

For the atheists out there

Ohio State 42 - Oregon 20

There is a God​

 

[Doom]

Well actually it does specifically command works and morality, especially in verses 15 and following, and especially 16. Yet that aside, I have quoted numerous references building a strong case showing how true faith must be demonstrated (with works), not simply professed. And those references are just the tip of the iceberg. A massive portion of the NT is devoted to instruction about behavior and obedience. Anyone who disregards that much scripture is simply looking for a license to sin. If you read just the scriptures I've quoted so far and continue to assert that works are unnecessary you are being willfully dense, lacking faith enough to leave your master of sin behind and obey your new master. Faith must include choosing Christ over not only the world, but over yourself. From here on the choice is yours. Time for me to wipe the dust from my sandals.

Go ahead and start wiping dust, because I've been wiping the dung you've been spreading all over this thread. You don't know Jesus from Adam, or the Bible from Dr. Seuss.


Rom 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

Paul is now asking if we shall sin. After all, God is not counting our sin against us, because we are no longer under the Law that proves we are sinning. So shall we just go out and sin?

Most commentators and Christians read this verse and respond to it like this:

“Paul is telling us that we should refrain from sinning. You know, do the best you can, because none of us can stop sinning altogether. But with God’s help, we can certainly give it our best effort”

This mentality is completely foreign to Paul, to the text, and lacks basic logic, reason, and reality. It makes a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrected life. You are either free from sin, dead to sin, or you are not. There is no question that the behaviors may or may not have changed, but even unbelievers can change their behavior, and if that is the evidence that you are free from sin, then unbelievers could make the same claim (See Romans 2:14-29).

Paul points out in Romans 7 that we have indwelling sin in our flesh. The flesh is insatiable. In it, is coveting of every kind. The flesh practices evil. That is its job. It can do no other. You cannot perfect the flesh, and it is the height of arrogance to think you can or are. No matter how much you want to, you cannot do what you please Gal 5:17.

Again, Paul makes the same statement he did when asked if we would continue in sin. “May it never be!” Is Paul saying, “No, don’t intentionally go out and sin because you are under grace and not under the Law”. Absolutely not! Paul is saying that it will never be. God will not allow it. Why? How can Paul say that it will never be that we sin because we are under grace? The answer is in the next verse:

Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

If you are going to return to the system of the Law, then you will be proved a sinner, and a slave to sin, and the result is death. In other words, if sin is to be held to your account, then you have a big problem. If you want to consider yourself alive to sin, then sin is once again your master. If it is you that is sinning, than there is only one result for your obedience to sin, and that is death. Hebrews 10:26-29 really makes this point clear…

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”


In this chapter of Hebrews it is revealed that Jesus is the once for all sacrifice for sin. There is no other sacrifice. It is finished. If you are going to negate His sacrifice and claim that you are continuing in sin, then there is not going to be another sacrifice for your sin. The only thing you would have to look forward to is a terrifying expectation of judgment. Those who were under the Law only needed a couple of witnesses to die without mercy. How much more those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus and call his sacrifice insufficient to take away sin once for all? It is an insult to God’s grace, because you regard His blood as being impure to cleanse you from all sin.

Believers have been set free from sin. What an insult it is to return to sin and make yourself a slave all over again by attempting to obey the Law for righteousness. What are you going to obey? Sin, resulting in death? Or the Gospel resulting in righteousness? The truth is, if you are in Christ you can’t even become a slave of sin, because you are already dead to sin. However, like the Galatians we can be deceived into walking like we are still under the old slave owner.

Now run and hide like all the other godless perverts on this site.

 

[Morpheus]

Go ahead and start wiping dust, because I've been wiping the dung you've been spreading all over this thread. You don't know Jesus from Adam, or the Bible from Dr. Seuss.


Rom 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

Paul is now asking if we shall sin. After all, God is not counting our sin against us, because we are no longer under the Law that proves we are sinning. So shall we just go out and sin?

Most commentators and Christians read this verse and respond to it like this:

“Paul is telling us that we should refrain from sinning. You know, do the best you can, because none of us can stop sinning altogether. But with God’s help, we can certainly give it our best effort”

This mentality is completely foreign to Paul, to the text, and lacks basic logic, reason, and reality. It makes a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrected life. You are either free from sin, dead to sin, or you are not. There is no question that the behaviors may or may not have changed, but even unbelievers can change their behavior, and if that is the evidence that you are free from sin, then unbelievers could make the same claim (See Romans 2:14-29).

Paul points out in Romans 7 that we have indwelling sin in our flesh. The flesh is insatiable. In it, is coveting of every kind. The flesh practices evil. That is its job. It can do no other. You cannot perfect the flesh, and it is the height of arrogance to think you can or are. No matter how much you want to, you cannot do what you please Gal 5:17.

Again, Paul makes the same statement he did when asked if we would continue in sin. “May it never be!” Is Paul saying, “No, don’t intentionally go out and sin because you are under grace and not under the Law”. Absolutely not! Paul is saying that it will never be. God will not allow it. Why? How can Paul say that it will never be that we sin because we are under grace? The answer is in the next verse:

Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

If you are going to return to the system of the Law, then you will be proved a sinner, and a slave to sin, and the result is death. In other words, if sin is to be held to your account, then you have a big problem. If you want to consider yourself alive to sin, then sin is once again your master. If it is you that is sinning, than there is only one result for your obedience to sin, and that is death. Hebrews 10:26-29 really makes this point clear…

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”


In this chapter of Hebrews it is revealed that Jesus is the once for all sacrifice for sin. There is no other sacrifice. It is finished. If you are going to negate His sacrifice and claim that you are continuing in sin, then there is not going to be another sacrifice for your sin. The only thing you would have to look forward to is a terrifying expectation of judgment. Those who were under the Law only needed a couple of witnesses to die without mercy. How much more those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus and call his sacrifice insufficient to take away sin once for all? It is an insult to God’s grace, because you regard His blood as being impure to cleanse you from all sin.

Believers have been set free from sin. What an insult it is to return to sin and make yourself a slave all over again by attempting to obey the Law for righteousness. What are you going to obey? Sin, resulting in death? Or the Gospel resulting in righteousness? The truth is, if you are in Christ you can’t even become a slave of sin, because you are already dead to sin. However, like the Galatians we can be deceived into walking like we are still under the old slave owner.

Now run and hide like all the other godless perverts on this site.

You can continue in your prevarications all day long, twisting meanings to fit your lifestyle, yet you still have not answered several quotes listed above, especially James 2:14-26, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 5:16, John 14 15-24, and 1 John 1:5–10. Even if someone listed every NT instruction on how to behave, and that list would be lo-o-o-ong, you would discredit those instructions because you refuse to follow Christ so you can go your own way. Doom is an appropriate username for you.

Specifically, when Christ spoke of the judgement in Matthew 25:31-46, the sheep and goats will be judged by what they did and didn't do. The goats were sure that they were saved right up until the end.

 

[Doom]

You can continue in your prevarications all day long, twisting meanings to fit your lifestyle

No, dimwit, I actually know and shared with you what Paul said. You reject it, because you reject Christ. What you have and worship is a goat god. You are the Pharisee in the temple, boasting of your works and examining the works of others, and calling them insufficient. By doing this (which you do), you spit on the cross of Christ and call His ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice "worthless". You cannot discern those verses, nor will you accept them being shared with you, anymore than you have what Paul wrote. You are a foolish little hell-bound prig, and I no longer care about you.