Transgressor from the womb

M

marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Of course, Its His Justice. You dot believe God is pleased with His Own Justice against sin ?
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God does not pervert justice, which is why He does not condemn babies for being born in sin because of Adam. The Bible is clear on this.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
OZOS

OZOS

Well-known member
marke said:
God does not pervert justice, which is why He does not condemn babies for being born in sin because of Adam. The Bible is clear on this.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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Calvinism is a cult, but you are no help in bringing them to the truth, when you continue perverting God's word. This is more evidence that you have no clue what salvation is, and have no clue what the gospel is. Ez 18:20 is about physical death (separation from the body), not spiritual death (separation from God). Adam was separated from God when he sinned. All men are separated from God because of Adam's sin.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
 
Clete

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OZOS said:
Calvinism is a cult, but you are no help in bringing them to the truth, when you continue perverting God's word. This is more evidence that you have no clue what salvation is, and have no clue what the gospel is. Ez 18:20 is about physical death (separation from the body), not spiritual death (separation from God). Adam was separated from God when he sinned. All men are separated from God because of Adam's sin.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
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Marke is right on this one.

The traditional doctrine of original sin is a Catholic monstrosity that survived the Reformation and remains as a prominent distinctive of all Augustinian doctrinal systems including Calvinism. It is flatly false.

The passages you quote in support of it are followed immediately by...

Romans 5:​
— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)​
​
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

Of course you are fully aware of that passage but the point I am making is that God knew that His Son would die for the whole world well in advance and therefore understood that even before the propitiation came, God could "not impute sin" (verse 13) knowing that the price for the sin that did exist would be paid. Thus, children, who have no law - ever - (Deuteronomy 1:39; Hebrews 5:14) are not held guilty of sin because of Adam's sin.

The passage Marke quotes put an end to the debate and to any doubt about it. Indeed the entire concept of God holding children guilty of sin because of Adam's transgression cannot survive even a fleetingly surface reading of Ezekiel 18.

God is just.
Counting people guilty as a result of the sins of their ancestors is unjust.
Therefore, God does not hold people guilty as a result of the sins of their ancestors.
QED
 
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M

marke

Well-known member
OZOS said:
Calvinism is a cult, but you are no help in bringing them to the truth, when you continue perverting God's word. This is more evidence that you have no clue what salvation is, and have no clue what the gospel is. Ez 18:20 is about physical death (separation from the body), not spiritual death (separation from God). Adam was separated from God when he sinned. All men are separated from God because of Adam's sin.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
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You fail to prove God hates little babies and will gladly burn them in hell for Adam's sin if they die before getting saved.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
marke said:
God does not pervert justice, which is why He does not condemn babies for being born in sin because of Adam. The Bible is clear on this.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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Nobody said anything about God perverting Justice save yourself !
 
M

marke

Well-known member
OZOS said:
Never implied that, you worthless pile of crap.
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What you fail to prove is that babies who die young go to hell at all, proving that at least some sinners do not go to hell for Adam's sin.

The Bible says all sinners in Adam will die. That does not mean all sinners will go to hell because of Adam. The Bible also says in Christ shall all sinners be made alive. That does not mean that all sinners go to heaven just because Jesus took away the sin of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
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Clete

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OZOS said:
Only thing you said that's true.
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Then make the argument, OZOS! Don't be lazy like the most of the fools on this who can't think. If I'm wrong, then show me. Explain it to me. Make the argument!

I didn't just show up on this thread and leave my post with the one sentence, "Marke is right on this one." and leave as though my having made the claim was sufficient to make it so. I made a brief argument that supported my position and, in principle at least, I believe I proved my position both biblically and with the most basic of rational arguments that could be made.

In fact, lets just start with that because the biblical argument can get rather complex and lengthy. Since you have just conceded my primary premise, then aim an attack at the secondary premise of my argument.

"Counting people guilty as a result of the sins of their ancestors is unjust."

Just make some sort of argument that is intended to demonstrate that premise to be false.

I have the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 to prove that isn't false. What have you got?

Clete
 
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Clete

Clete

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Someone please tell me how Original Sin can survives the reading of this single sentence....

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

Is there anyone who can tell me? Is there any Catholic that knows? Is there a Calvinist who can explain it? Is there any Christian anywhere who can read that sentence, a sentence which sums up the entire chapter of the bible in which it is found, and affirm the doctrine of Original Sin?

Anyone at all?

How many millions of people have rejected the gospel on the basis of this monstrous doctrine which is so blatantly contrary to justice that any child can see it? It is truly a doctrine of demons!

Clete

P.S. For the sake of clarity, I am referring to the traditional Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin and not merely a "sin nature" or a tendency toward sin or what is referred to as "the flesh". I am referring to the doctrine that originated with Augustine of Hippo and that says that all humanity inherits Adam's guilt whereby an infant is eternally damned at birth. (Original Sin - Augustine)
 
M

marke

Well-known member
Clete said:
Someone please tell me how Original Sin can survives the reading of this single sentence....

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

Is there anyone who can tell me? Is there any Catholic that knows? Is there a Calvinist who can explain it? Is there any Christian anywhere who can read that sentence, a sentence which sums up the entire chapter of the bible in which it is found, and affirm the doctrine of Original Sin?

Anyone at all?

How many millions of people have rejected the gospel on the basis of this monstrous doctrine which is so blatantly contrary to justice that any child can see it? It is truly a doctrine of demons!

Clete

P.S. For the sake of clarity, I am referring to the traditional Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin and not merely a "sin nature" or a tendency toward sin or what is referred to as "the flesh". I am referring to the doctrine that originated with Augustine of Hippo and that says that all humanity inherits Adam's guilt whereby an infant is eternally damned at birth. (Original Sin - Augustine)
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All humans are born in sin but not all sins result in banishment to the lake of fire. In fact, the only sin which results in banishment to hell is loving sin to the point of rejecting the light clearly given to every sinner born into the world during their day of the Lord's visitation.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
 
Clete

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marke said:
All humans are born in sin but not all sins result in banishment to the lake of fire. In fact, the only sin which results in banishment to hell is loving sin to the point of rejecting the light clearly given to every sinner born into the world during their day of the Lord's visitation.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
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I agree with you about original sin but this seem to take it too far in the other direction. There are evil people in the world and they will go to Hell because of their evil actions. God offers redemption to those who believe based on the price paid by His Son but those who reject that offer will pay the price themselves. The only redemption that is applied universally concerns that sinful part of us which at enmity with God because of Adam's sin. Even believers will give an account of our lives to Christ and will "receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10) so why would it less so for unbelievers?

This is why I made the clarification before about my point not being against the doctrinal ideas surrounding what Paul calls "the flesh". The flesh definitely is a real thing that is innate to the human race and that we all must deal with so long as we physically live.
​
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​
​
Clete
 
M

marke

Well-known member
Clete said:
I agree with you about original sin but this seem to take it too far in the other direction. There are evil people in the world and they will go to Hell because of their evil actions. God offers redemption to those who believe based on the price paid by His Son but those who reject that offer will pay the price themselves. The only redemption that is applied universally concerns that sinful part of us which at enmity with God because of Adam's sin. Even believers will give an account of our lives to Christ and will "receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10) so why would it less so for unbelievers?

This is why I made the clarification before about my point not being against the doctrinal ideas surrounding what Paul calls "the flesh". The flesh definitely is a real thing that is innate to the human race and that we all must deal with so long as we physically live.
​
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​
​
Clete
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Christians will also be judged for the deeds done in the flesh after salvation, but they will not go to hell. Nobody goes to hell except those whose names have been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life for committing a sin that cannot be forgiven.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Clete

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marke said:
Christians will also be judged for the deeds done in the flesh after salvation, but they will not go to hell. Nobody goes to hell except those whose names have been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life for committing a sin that cannot be forgiven.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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But don't get the effect confused with the cause. Those who go to Hell aren't going there because their names aren't in the book of life. Their names aren't in the book for the same reason they're going to Hell. That reason is sin. If they had not sinned, there'd be no sin debt to pay, either by them or Christ.
 
M

marke

Well-known member
Clete said:
But don't get the effect confused with the cause. Those who go to Hell aren't going there because their names aren't in the book of life. Their names aren't in the book for the same reason they're going to Hell. That reason is sin. If they had not sinned, there'd be no sin debt to pay, either by them or Christ.
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That is not Bible interpretation, that is a mixture of opinion and false understanding of God's Word. The Bible does not say sinners' names are blotted out because of bad deeds. Revelation tells us the sinners are judged for their deeds, but they are not condemned for those sins, since the book of life is afterward opened to see if their names are there.

Revelation 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Clete

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marke said:
That is not Bible interpretation, that is a mixture of opinion and false understanding of God's Word.
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Saying it doesn't make it so.

marke said:
The Bible does not say sinners' names are blotted out because of bad deeds. Revelation tells us the sinners are judged for their deeds, but they are not condemned for those sins, since the book of life is afterward opened to see if their names are there.

Revelation 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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I never said they were blotted out. They were never in there to begin with.

Besides the verse you cite supports what I've said...

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
 
M

marke

Well-known member
Clete said:
Saying it doesn't make it so.


I never said they were blotted out. They were never in there to begin with.

Besides the verse you cite supports what I've said...

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
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How can a sinner's name get blotted out? God does it. Why? I believe it is for blasphemy and violent rejection and abuse of God and the Bible.

  1. Exodus 32:32
    Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, outof thy book which thou hast written.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Exodus 32:33
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
 
Clete

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marke said:
How can a sinner's name get blotted out? God does it. Why? I believe it is for blasphemy and violent rejection and abuse of God and the Bible.

  1. Exodus 32:32
    Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, outof thy book which thou hast written.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Exodus 32:33
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
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So, is this you conceding the point?

"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

I say that it's sin that lands you in Hell and you say "No its not." and then quote a verse that says that it is.

I don't get it.


(I can tell that at least part of your confusion here has to do with taking things that pertain to Israel (i.e. to those under the law) and applying them to every believer. Today, under Paul's gospel (i.e. the dispensation of grace), there isn't any way for a believer's name to be blotted out of the book of life and we will not be involved in the judgement that sends people to the Lake of Fire except perhaps as judges. This, however, is a discussion for another time.)
 
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