A perfect clock remains a perfect clock, regardless of what time it displays. A clock's nature/substance does not change just because its display of time changes.
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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A perfect clock remains a perfect clock, regardless of what time it displays. A clock's nature/substance does not change just because its display of time changes.
This should be interesting.
zippy2006
New member
Agreed, within His creation. Change within one's nature is not creativity, it is either a bettering or a worsening of oneself. God is perfect, He does not improve or get worse. See my conversation with Knight.
It should be, but you'll never know why.
Lon
Well-known member
Other posts undoubtedly missed but important to this specific discussion:
The difference between infinite God and finite man:
Regarding 'Greek influence:
Is it a physical property? Insomuch as it measures, physical things, but no it is a logical concept of duration.
1. <--------------------------------------------->
2 <-------------|-------------|---------------->
The first represents God's eternal being (no beginning/no end).
The second represents our finite beginning (a beginning with no end but
with measurable increments.
Note that only the second can be measured by any possible means, the first cannot: Because God has no beginning, there is no point in time you can start measuring His existence. All segments of His eternity are artificial (created) by logic and necessity. This, imo, proves that time is a product of creation specifically because it is impossibly to quantify or qualify His existence other than His specific interactions with the segments involved. They are artificial (created). Time is a segmented concept only possibly by our existence. What God does can be measured (our existence). It is impossibly to apply the same to His existence. Having no beginning, there is no place or point which can be measured because His existence goes both forward and backward from any point you'd wish to measure duration. If you acquiesce His eternal nonbeginning, this very statement means He is without time.
When/if we are involved in this discussion further, I'll simply refer back to this post. It is a sound proof that cannot be thwarted or escaped.
The difference between infinite God and finite man:
Scriptural references that time is a God-given concept:
Regarding 'Greek influence:
Noun: person, place, thing, idea. Yup, time is a thing, an idea.
Is it a physical property? Insomuch as it measures, physical things, but no it is a logical concept of duration.
God isn't in the same reality['only,' or to be thought of as constrained], He interacts with it, but isn't one of us.
1. <--------------------------------------------->
2 <-------------|-------------|---------------->
The first represents God's eternal being (no beginning/no end).
The second represents our finite beginning (a beginning with no end but
with measurable increments.
Note that only the second can be measured by any possible means, the first cannot: Because God has no beginning, there is no point in time you can start measuring His existence. All segments of His eternity are artificial (created) by logic and necessity. This, imo, proves that time is a product of creation specifically because it is impossibly to quantify or qualify His existence other than His specific interactions with the segments involved. They are artificial (created). Time is a segmented concept only possibly by our existence. What God does can be measured (our existence). It is impossibly to apply the same to His existence. Having no beginning, there is no place or point which can be measured because His existence goes both forward and backward from any point you'd wish to measure duration. If you acquiesce His eternal nonbeginning, this very statement means He is without time.
When/if we are involved in this discussion further, I'll simply refer back to this post. It is a sound proof that cannot be thwarted or escaped.
Why does change indicate imperfection? Can't that which is perfect change perfectly?
Lon
Well-known member
This could have been set up better to get us further down the road a bit more quickly. You know I agree with you on this point already.
Lon
Well-known member
Again, intrinsic vs. extrinsic change. Unless that is repeatedly made clear, it will continue to be a long long long rabbit trail.
I'll never know why you claim to be a Christian if you don't understand that God is eternal and nothing transcends that fact.
zippy2006
New member
Lon
Well-known member
Same as just above with Chat. We are simply talking about an extrinsic change here. I have no problem with that.
When we are looking at what 'time it is' when talking about my 'unchanging clock' I agree there is an extrinsic change. It is the same as when I say I am wearing a tan shirt today. It is a momentary thing but I'm still just me (no change).
elohiym
Well-known member
This verse came to mind:
Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
God is eternal. No one has said otherwise. Again, this conversation is well beyond your capacity to contribute. I suggest you remain quiet and learn
Lon
Well-known member
If I make a clay mug, the materials were already there, the mug is new, but "yes," because whatever exists comes from an eternal God. Be careful here, you are setting up to destroy Enyart's 'new song' question, inadvertently, perhaps? Keep with the intrinsic/extrinsic idea and I think you'll do okay. Applying 'change' across board will cut the OV as well as any other view just as severely. Call one edge of that double-edge intrinsic, and the other extrinsic and we'll have a meaningful discussion.
What learn from open theist's that deny God had an eternal plan from the beginning? No thanks.
sky, it's clear you believe God has an eternal plan and I might even agree with that statement.
But here is the real question for you....
Was there a time before God created the eternal plan?
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