Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

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Letsargue

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Did he still something of yours?

sky, do you believe that this verse is true?

Jeremiah 19:5



Do you believe that mankind can do things that God did not plan, nor want, nor desire, nor command, nor preordain, nor predestine, etc... to happen?

If not, what does the verse I quoted mean to you?


Chat, - what do you think anything God says means to some of these guys? - It doesn't matter what you show them, they'll still call God a Liar. - ( That he didn't mean what He said ). That's what a Hypocritical Liar ( Is )!!!! And that Ain't God!!!

Paul - 080312
 

sky.

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Did he still something of yours?

sky, do you believe that this verse is true?

Jeremiah 19:5



Do you believe that mankind can do things that God did not plan, nor want, nor desire, nor command, nor preordain, nor predestine, etc... to happen?

If not, what does the verse I quoted mean to you?

Does Jeremiah 19:5 mean that God is not omniscient?
By Dr. Paul M. Elliott


Some Bible critics (including some who embrace the "open theism" heresy) use this verse to deny the perfect foreknowledge of God. But the believer can quickly demolish the critics' argument using sound principles of Biblical interpretation. It is vital that we do so, because the issue the critic raises is no obscure point of theology; it goes to the very heart of the Gospel.

The Critic's Argument

Some Bible critics (including some who embrace the "open theism" heresy) argue that Jeremiah 19:5 means that God is not omniscient — that the people of Judah invented ways of pagan worship that God did not foresee or foreknow. Here is the passage in context, with the phrase in question in bold:

4. "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents

5. (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

6. therefore behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter."

The same thought is repeated in Jeremiah 32:35 —

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The Believer's Answer

The Scripture-driven Christian can quickly demolish the critic's argument, that God did not foreknow Judah's despicable acts of paganism, by employing sound principles of Biblical interpretation. Two of the foremost principles are these:

The Bible is it own infallible interpreter, as stated in 1 Corinthians 2:13 and elsewhere. When we have a problem understanding the Word of God, our infallible interpretive authority is the Word itself.
Because all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21), Scripture bears the attributes of God Himself. Three of those attributes especially bear upon the passage before us: God is absolutely, perfectly holy (e.g., Isaiah 57:15, Habakkuk 1:13). He possess perfect, eternal knowledge of all events past, present, and future (e.g., Proverbs 5:21, 15:13; Psalm 139:2-3; Isaiah 40:26-27; Isaiah 46:9-10). And, God never contradicts Himself (e.g., 1 Samuel 15:29; Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). In fact, for God to have less than perfectly comprehensive knowledge of all things, or to contradict Himself to the slightest degree, would themselves be violations of His holiness.
If we keep these attributes of God and His Word clearly in mind, the answer to the argument of the Bible critic concerning Jeremiah 19:5 is likewise very clear. We can refute the critic in two steps.

Step one: We must eliminate the wrong interpretation. Because the Bible makes it clear that God never contradicts Himself, and that He possesses eternal and comprehensive knowledge of all things, the phrase "nor did it come into My mind" cannot mean that the people of Judah had done something that was outside of God's perfect foreknowledge. Nothing ever takes the eternally omniscient God by surprise, not even our deepest sin. If that were true, God would not be God. And if that were true, we could have no certainty that Christ paid the penalty for all our sins — there might be some future sin that God did not foresee in the death of His Son. So the issue we are dealing with is no obscure point of theology; it goes to the very heart of the Gospel.

So much for the critic's misinterpretation. But we must also establish the correct interpretation. It is not enough to say what God's Word does not mean; we must firmly establish what it does mean.

That brings us to step two: We have eliminated the possibility of lack of foreknowledge on God's part by paying attention to the broad context of all of Scripture, which boldly sets forth the attributes of God and His Word, and the necessity of comparing Scripture with Scripture. In order to establish the true meaning of the phrase "nor did it come into My mind," we now focus upon the local context of Jeremiah 19:5. We find that the essence of the context is that the people of Judah are about to experience God's judgment because they have violated God's absolute holiness. In worshipping the pagan gods of the surrounding nations and engaging in their most despicable practices, Judah was doing something that God "did not command or speak" — something that was foreign to His holiness. They had made the land God had given them, and in which He had condescended to dwell with them, "an alien place." The phrase "nor did it come into My mind" indicates not a lack of foreknowledge on God's part, but rather that to entertain the thought of such vile deeds, much less to command it, would be completely and utterly foreign to the nature of God.

Comfort to the Believer, A Warning to the Critic

We can quench the fiery darts of the Bible critic, who is the instrument of our ultimate enemy, Satan, when we wage war by God's rules of engagement — putting on the whole armor of God, taking up the shield of faith and the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:10-18). The problem of the Bible critic is that he refuses to be bound by God's rules; his rebellious spirit makes up its own rules. In 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, Paul states that the preaching of the cross itself is foolishness to such a person, and that God will destroy the wisdom of those who exalt themselves against Christ, who is true wisdom.

The Word of God gives both solid comfort to the believer, and a stern warning to the Bible critic: "Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar" (Proverbs 30:5-6).

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godrulz

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The Bible clearly portrays a partially open future and God thus knows it as such (knows reality as it is). Dynamic omniscience is based on cumulative evidence, not one verse. Since the future is not yet, God knows it as anticipatory, not certain. Words become meaningless if you try to retain your view. God knew of the possibility of the Fall, evil, Israel disobeying, etc., but His genuine surprise and grief shows that His expectation was different than the eventual reality. Probability is not actuality/certainty. You wrongly assume that the future is like a completed film instead of seeing it as being filmed right now in real space-time. To have men make and settle contingent choices to be known before they exist is nonsense.
 

Letsargue

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You all talk as though God’s Mind is shifting around like any other false teacher shifts his silly mind!! - God does not shift from topic to topic as the occasion arises for Him. - God (( Has Spoken it all )), and there is ( No ) saying, - “here” and saying “there”. - God says it all at the (( same unmovable time )). Just read the Word of God already given to cover everything that the man can imagine. When Christ fulfilled all things that are written, that left “that which is Perfect” to cover everything!!! - ( Proof )>> Revelation 22:13 KJV – “I ( am ) Alpha and Omega, ((( “The” beginning and the end ))), “The” first and the last”. ----//-- It goes without saying that the Lord is ( also ) all “The” in-between the beginning and the end!! - Christ is now ALL there is, and it is Him that (((( “IS” the Time that “IS” )))) How can Christ (( Be in Time ))???? – Time “IS” who Christ “IS”; He said He was!!!

What a silly concept!!

Paul – 080312
 

sky.

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You all talk as though God’s Mind is shifting around like any other false teacher shifts his silly mind!! - God does not shift from topic to topic as the occasion arises for Him. - God (( Has Spoken it all )), and there is ( No ) saying, - “here” and saying “there”. - God says it all at the (( same unmovable time )). Just read the Word of God already given to cover everything that the man can imagine. When Christ fulfilled all things that are written, that left “that which is Perfect” to cover everything!!! - ( Proof )>> Revelation 22:13 KJV – “I ( am ) Alpha and Omega, ((( “The” beginning and the end ))), “The” first and the last”. ----//-- It goes without saying that the Lord is ( also ) all “The” in-between the beginning and the end!! - Christ is now ALL there is, and it is Him that (((( “IS” the Time that “IS” )))) How can Christ (( Be in Time ))???? – Time “IS” who Christ “IS”; He said He was!!!

What a silly concept!!

Paul – 080312

Thank you. So simple.

open theism is a way that they can re-create God. Didn't Satan try to do that?
 

godrulz

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Thank you. So simple.

open theism is a way that they can re-create God. Didn't Satan try to do that?

letsargue does not make sense...Alpha and Omega indicates uncreated, eternal, not timeless. It is a title of Deity.

Open Theism is based on biblical, philosophical principles, not a desire to compromise truth. There are proven negative philosophical influences through Augustine's love of syncretism. Even classical theologians are revisting wrong traditions such as impassibility (Aquinas philosophical speculations should not be uncritically adopted).
 

sky.

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letsargue does not make sense...Alpha and Omega indicates uncreated, eternal, not timeless. It is a title of Deity.

Open Theism is based on biblical, philosophical principles, not a desire to compromise truth. There are proven negative philosophical influences through Augustine's love of syncretism. Even classical theologians are revisting wrong traditions such as impassibility (Aquinas philosophical speculations should not be uncritically adopted).

Again, not a Bible verse to be had. Do you practise this in the mirror every day?
 

chatmaggot

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Again, not a Bible verse to be had. Do you practise this in the mirror every day?

That's funny. Throughout this whole thread numerous Bible verses have been offered in support of the Open View. Your response has been to either ignore them or to state they don't mean what they say.
 

sky.

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That's funny. Throughout this whole thread numerous Bible verses have been offered in support of the Open View. Your response has been to either ignore them or to state they don't mean what they say.

Guess what maggot, your bed has been made. I hope, godrulz, Bob, Knight and all of the other heretics keep you warm.

I'm done with this thread. I have seen the face of Satan.
 
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Letsargue

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letsargue does not make sense...Alpha and Omega indicates uncreated, eternal, not timeless. It is a title of Deity.

Open Theism is based on biblical, philosophical principles, not a desire to compromise truth. There are proven negative philosophical influences through Augustine's love of syncretism. Even classical theologians are revisting wrong traditions such as impassibility (Aquinas philosophical speculations should not be uncritically adopted).


What a foreseeable sneak that was!!

That was a feeble excuse for denying the Truth.
Why didn’t you use the other (( Half )) saying,>> “I am the ((((( Beginning )))))) and the (( End ))?? -- That does have to do with (( TIME )), like it, or (( Not ))!!! -- WWWWoooooWWWWWW!!! -- Just like all the rest of the false teaching, and conniving one sided untruth doctors!!!!!! -- Leaving out the very thing that it was about, (( Surprise, Surprise – surprise~))!!

Paul – 080312
 
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Shasta

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The word we use to describe sequential-ness. In other words, events happen and we use the word "time" to describe the happening of events.

Before God created the Heavens and the Earth...He existed. If God created time then God existed before time. How long did God exist before He created time? That is a nonsensical question!
It IS nonsensical but only if you are talking about a pre-creation linear time.

Assuming that time is a series of successive changes that had some sort of duration asking at what point in the "endless successions of 'events" God created the universe is perfectly legitimate. It is only irrational in the context of an endless past of linear time.

God experiences sequential-ness and does not exist in the past and does not see the past as He sees the present. God is not now having a conversation with Moses at Sinai right now. That is past to us and to God. If God was "outside" of time then God would see all events in the same way and be as present in the past as He is in the present.

I think you are attempting to disprove what I said using your own assumptions rather than mine. For instance your definition of non-temporality which is that God is in EVERY moment of time is a kind of "PAN-temporality." That He is fully IN every moment of time is the very opposite of being OUTside of it. If He were a part of the flow of time then He would be inextricably linked to the “time” as it occurs in the material world.

God does not see all of eternity from above as a parade as some have described it. God is not now witnessing the banishment of Adam and Eve from the Garden.
 

Letsargue

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The word we use to describe sequential-ness. In other words, events happen and we use the word "time" to describe the happening of events.

Before God created the Heavens and the Earth...He existed. If God created time then God existed before time. How long did God exist before He created time? That is a nonsensical question!
It IS nonsensical but only if you are talking about a pre-creation linear time.

Assuming that time is a series of successive changes that had some sort of duration asking at what point in the "endless successions of 'events" God created the universe is perfectly legitimate. It is only irrational in the context of an endless past of linear time.



I think you are attempting to disprove what I said using your own assumptions rather than mine. For instance your definition of non-temporality which is that God is in EVERY moment of time is a kind of "PAN-temporality." That He is fully IN every moment of time is the very opposite of being OUTside of it. If He were a part of the flow of time then He would be inextricably linked to the “time” as it occurs in the material world.


In the same sentence he contradicted ((( himself ))) and God. God cannot be (( IN )) time, or ( not in ) time. (( God is time )), he should read the Book!! - Proof again, and again>>-- Daniel 7:9 KJV --&-- Daniel 7:13 KJV --&-- Daniel 7:22 KJV -----//-- Now ( WHO ) is (( The )) “Ancient of Days”?? - Is he the same one who said, - “I am the Beginning and the End”?? --- Well No, to any of the fools who have their doctrines already set to deny everything God says!!!!

Paul – 080312
 

sky.

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The word we use to describe sequential-ness. In other words, events happen and we use the word "time" to describe the happening of events.

Before God created the Heavens and the Earth...He existed. If God created time then God existed before time. How long did God exist before He created time? That is a nonsensical question!



In the same sentence he contradicted ((( himself ))) and God. God cannot be (( IN )) time, or ( not in ) time. (( God is time )), he should read the Book!! - Proof again, and again>>-- Daniel 7:9 KJV --&-- Daniel 7:13 KJV --&-- Daniel 7:22 KJV -----//-- Now ( WHO ) is (( The )) “Ancient of Days”?? - Is he the same one who said, - “I am the Beginning and the End”?? --- Well No, to any of the fools who have their doctrines already set to deny everything God says!!!!

Paul – 080312

The ding dongs who believe in this damnable belief of "open theism" will not respond to the Truth of Scripture because they don't know it.

They are waiting for godrulz to show up and give them another mouthful of "godrulz" small "g".
 

Letsargue

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Exactly. They have a few conversts who take up their slack and add to it. Cowards.


I don’t know if they’re cowards or not, but they can’t be very God Knowledgeable, or they would be jumping at the chance to show their stuff, if they could, so they must not have any “Stuff“!!

Paul – 080412
 

sky.

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I don’t know if they’re cowards or not, but they can’t be very God Knowledgeable, or they would be jumping at the chance to show their stuff, if they could, so they must not have any “Stuff“!!

Paul – 080412

True. It isn't exactly "cowardice" that moves them to go against God. The point that is interesting is how the author of the thread hides in the bushes when they get confronted with the Truth of Scripture.

I guess it's more a team approach against the truth.
 

sky.

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I believe that Bob and Knight are out of their league. godrulz is the leader.

Ezekiel 28:17
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
---------------

1 Timothy 3:6

6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

-------------------

None of them are innocent.
 
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