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  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    So, is your definition, "the one generally accepted by others," objectively true, or is it subjective/relative?


    Curly just cannot see the self defeating "argument" he is presenting, and the TOL audience is laughing, as he the ditch he is digging, gets deeper.
    Subjective doesn't equate "relative".

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    If I say, " John W exists", am I correct? I have faith, I believe it's reasonable to assume that John W exists.
    Wrong biblical definition of "faith," and subjectivity/objectivity. All biblical faith, and most "secular" faith, is based upon facts/evidence. You confuse objectivity, with the concept of "absolute knowledge," that humans do not have. I do not have to know, "absolutely," all the scientific reasons as to why an airplane can fly, i.e., lift..................But, based upon the facts, evidence, i.e., I see it take off, witnesses tell me(eyewitness testimony)...................that airplanes fly-objective truth, not subjective truth.

    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    It's my subjective belief. .
    You are confused about the concept of "subjectivity/relativeness," and belief/faith.

    You assert that truth is relative/subjective.

    You are one confused Curly.

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  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    You argue, not me:No one has the truth-it is all subjective/relative.


    If no one has the truth, then the statement "no one has the truth" is false=a truthstatement!Then how do you know that is true?

    =Self defeating argument. Curly the idiot just cannot see it. A 6 year old can.
    I never said all truth is relative. That's your straw man.

    Leave a comment:


  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by musterion View Post
    What must we do to be saved?
    The prerequisite for anyone to be saved from destruction, is Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection. It doesn't matter how good you are, if Christ hadn't died on that cross and risen from the dead, we would all be doomed to destruction, due to the original sin. The first Adam's fall, effected everyone, whether good or not, saint and sinner, all died and perished, without recourse of a resurrection.

    Now we're living in the age after Christ's resurrection, hence all people on earth, every human being, will be risen from the dead and judged. Saint and sinner, unlike before, now have an opportunity to inherit eternal life, in God's Kingdom. So, you and I will be judged according to our deeds. That's the standard established by Christ, the judge appointed by the heavenly Father. The infinite, eternal, Creator, YHWH, has appointed His Son, as King, Judge and High priest. Our deeds, the way we live, will determine our eternal destiny.

    If you are of the elect, born again/born from above, you will reign with Christ over the nations. You're a member of His royal family. You won't suffer the torment of the first death. You won't go to the abyss as most of humanity does. You will enter God's Kingdom, at the point of death, into a realm where you will wait for the resurrection. It's a pleasant rest and dream like environment. You won't be tormented by demons in the abyss. If you're not a Christian, born again, regenerated, then you will go to the dark abyss, where you might be summoned by demons, tormented. You will mostly sleep and also experience a nightmarish condition, when you are semi-awake.

    The demons and the living (human beings when alive, like necromancers, magicians), have the power to summon the human dead. The witch of Endor, summoned Samuel from his sleep or rest. He was a righteous prophet, but he was in the abyss. He was protected somewhat, but still vulnerable to being summoned. This ends with Christ. If you're in Christ, you don't have to worry about that.

    Everyone who is in the abyss, will not be thrown into the lake of fire. Only the wicked, those who were extremely evil, here on earth when alive, and those who might not have been so evil, but once summoned in the abyss they chose to serve the demonic forces, authorities that summoned them. To remain conscious, they do the bidding of the devil and his minions, becoming a demonic minion themselves.

    Those who get to the resurrection, without serving the devil, who died in this life, as relatively good people, and didn't serve the devil when in the abyss, will become part of the nations that are shepherd by the elect. The bride of Christ. Those who are part of Christ's royal family, His bride, will become angels. Like the angels/essentially. True Christians will become like Jesus and His angels. We will serve as ministering spirits. No flesh and blood will inherit the Kingdom Of God (We get resurrection bodies, unlike the nations). The nations will have access to the tree of life (what exactly that entrails is a mystery) and humanity will spread throughout the universe, as originally intended by YHWH.

    And like I just mentioned, the true Christians or elect, the Bride of Christ, will be the angels of that Aeon/Age. Eventually, many of the people of the nations will eventually inherit the same nature as the elect, becoming angels themselves. That is the eternal destiny of the living ones. YHWH is the Living God of the Living, not the dead. It's an eternal journey, form holiness to holiness, glory to glory, power to power, ascending, closer and closer to the Heavenly Father's Infinite Light.
    Last edited by RealityJerk; December 6, 2017, 04:18 PM. Reason: Typos, Clarification

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  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    I never said the truth can't be known. I said the truth can only be known subjectively. That is a true statement... .
    So, in other words, the above is a true statement, but not really, as truth is not objective-it is subjective.

    If all truth is relative/subjective, then the statement itself "I said the truth can only be known subjectively. That is a true statement... "would be relative/subjective, and not objectively true.


    Curly just cannot see that he hasa self defeating/refuting argument, one that commits suicide. A 6 year old can see it.

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    My definition, the one I associate with the word "theist", is the definition generally accepted by others. Theist denotes someone who beliefs in a deity or God. I'm asking you if you believe in a God. The word "theism" or "theist" is generally understood to denote a set criteria of belief, and I'm asking you if you fit that criteria of belief. Simple yes or no answer will do.
    So, is your definition, "the one generally accepted by others," objectively true, or is it subjective/relative?


    Curly just cannot see the self defeating "argument" he is presenting, and the TOL audience is laughing, as he the ditch he is digging, gets deeper.

    Leave a comment:


  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    Non responsive...dodge ball....


    Is "The truth cannot be known-all of it is subjective" a true statement?
    I never said the truth can't be known. I said the truth can only be known subjectively. That is a true statement and the fact that you know anything attests to that simple, obvious fact. You need to exist, in order to know anything. Don't you exist?

    If I say, " John W exists", am I correct? I have faith, I believe it's reasonable to assume that John W exists. It's my subjective belief. Only you know "objectively" if you actually exist. All objective truth for you, what you recognize as truth, requires you. Not me, not the guy or gal over there, but you. That's where God will meet you, at your absolute point of certainty. That's the point I'm making.

    You will commune with God, have a relationship with God, God can impart knowledge, revelation to you, and that is true, regardless of how I might feel about you or whether I doubt you have this relationship with God. It doesn't matter what I believe about it. You either have it or you don't. Perhaps God will grant me the ability to recognize that what you are saying is true. You are actually speaking the truth. That's my point.

    Leave a comment:


  • musterion
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    My definition, the one I associate with the word "theist", is the definition generally accepted by others. Theist denotes someone who beliefs in a deity or God. I'm asking you if you believe in a God. The word "theism" or "theist" is generally understood to denote a set criteria of belief, and I'm asking you if you fit that criteria of belief. Simple yes or no answer will do.
    What must we do to be saved?

    Leave a comment:


  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    So, is your definition of a theist, objectively true?
    My definition, the one I associate with the word "theist", is the definition generally accepted by others. Theist denotes someone who beliefs in a deity or God. I'm asking you if you believe in a God. The word "theism" or "theist" is generally understood to denote a set criteria of belief, and I'm asking you if you fit that criteria of belief. Simple yes or no answer will do.

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    Because you can't know anything, other than subjectively.
    Is the above objective truth?

    How did you come to know that?

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    Because you can't know anything, other than subjectively. It all begins with you, subjectively, before you can experience anything. Nothing can exists for you, as a human being, apart from your personal experience. That applies to everyone, not just you. Truth is meaningless, without consciousness. Even science has proven that, through various experiments, in the area of quantum mechanics. Consciousness is the prerequisite for reality or for truth. The prime intelligence or sub-consciousness, is the root and substrate of truth. We call that prime intelligence or root mind, "GOD". The non-causal, non-contingent mind or consciousness.

    My point, the one you are missing or simply don't want to recognize, is that the only absolutely certain reality, is within your own experience. It's you. You don't know if I exist, that's on faith. I might very well exist, and everything else that you perceive around you as tangible. As a human being, you have to believe certain things in order to function in this life, in this world. Nonetheless, everything, every-thing, all things are faith. Belief, apart from your own point of consciousness, your personal point of absolute certainty.

    If you say you don't exist, when you do, then you're absolutely wrong, aren't you? Takes no faith, it's not a belief. You know that you exist, if you exist. Right? Do you know I exist, with the same degree of certainty? No. Even your keyboard, might not actually exist, in the way you perceive it, if at all. It might all be an illusion. Perhaps you're the only conscious one? Perhaps I'm a figment of your imagination. How would you prove otherwise? It doesn't matter. To believe that, would be unreasonable and impractical. You would be an idiot if you believed that and I doubt you're an idiot.

    All begins and ends, with consciousness. Your consciousness for you, is the absolute point of certainty and that's where you're going to have an encounter with God. That's where all of the prophets, received their revelation and communed with God, before there was a bible. It's not a book, that will save you, it's a person. That's the point I'm making.
    Non responsive...dodge ball....


    Is "The truth cannot be known-all of it is subjective" a true statement?

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    Really? The truth can not be known? Can you know if you exist? Whatever you are, do you exist? Is there someone or something having an experience right now? You perhaps? You're digging yourself into a ditch John. You're an idiot, let's stop with the silly antics. Use your wit constructively. You exist don't you? I believe you do, although I might be wrong. It's reasonable for me to assume, you exist. Right? Only you know whether you actually exist or not, right? Do you exist John? You know subjectively, that you do, if you do exist. Right? Be honest. The smarty pant troll act, put it aside for a moment if you can.
    You argue, not me:No one has the truth-it is all subjective/relative.


    If no one has the truth, then the statement "no one has the truth" is false=a truthstatement!Then how do you know that is true?

    =Self defeating argument. Curly the idiot just cannot see it. A 6 year old can.

    Leave a comment:


  • john w
    replied
    Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
    Really? The truth can not be known? Can you know if you exist? Whatever you are, do you exist? Is there someone or something having an experience right now? You perhaps? You're digging yourself into a ditch John. You're an idiot, let's stop with the silly antics. Use your wit constructively. You exist don't you? I believe you do, although I might be wrong. It's reasonable for me to assume, you exist. Right? Only you know whether you actually exist or not, right? Do you exist John? You know subjectively, that you do, if you do exist. Right? Be honest. The smarty pant troll act, put it aside for a moment if you can.
    Did our hero answer a simple question? Nope-non-responsive.

    The truth cannot be known.

    Is that a true statement?

    Speak plainly-yes, or no, Curly?

    Leave a comment:


  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    The truth cannot be known.

    Is that a true statement?

    Speak plainly-yes, or no, Curly?
    Really? The truth can not be known? Can you know if you exist? Whatever you are, do you exist? Is there someone or something having an experience right now? You perhaps? You're digging yourself into a ditch John. You're an idiot, let's stop with the silly antics. Use your wit constructively. You exist don't you? I believe you do, although I might be wrong. It's reasonable for me to assume, you exist. Right? Only you know whether you actually exist or not, right? Do you exist John? You know subjectively, that you do, if you do exist. Right? Be honest. The smarty pant troll act, put it aside for a moment if you can.

    Leave a comment:


  • RealityJerk
    replied
    Originally posted by john w View Post
    That's quite a subjective question, don't you think?


    Is "The truth cannot be known-all of it is subjective" a true statement?


    How do you know that your statement, "Exactly, it's all subjectivity. Everything is subjective," is a true statement?


    Kaboom....
    Because you can't know anything, other than subjectively. It all begins with you, subjectively, before you can experience anything. Nothing can exists for you, as a human being, apart from your personal experience. That applies to everyone, not just you. Truth is meaningless, without consciousness. Even science has proven that, through various experiments, in the area of quantum mechanics. Consciousness is the prerequisite for reality or for truth. The prime intelligence or sub-consciousness, is the root and substrate of truth. We call that prime intelligence or root mind, "GOD". The non-causal, non-contingent mind or consciousness.

    My point, the one you are missing or simply don't want to recognize, is that the only absolutely certain reality, is within your own experience. It's you. You don't know if I exist, that's on faith. I might very well exist, and everything else that you perceive around you as tangible. As a human being, you have to believe certain things in order to function in this life, in this world. Nonetheless, everything, every-thing, all things are faith. Belief, apart from your own point of consciousness, your personal point of absolute certainty.

    If you say you don't exist, when you do, then you're absolutely wrong, aren't you? Takes no faith, it's not a belief. You know that you exist, if you exist. Right? Do you know I exist, with the same degree of certainty? No. Even your keyboard, might not actually exist, in the way you perceive it, if at all. It might all be an illusion. Perhaps you're the only conscious one? Perhaps I'm a figment of your imagination. How would you prove otherwise? It doesn't matter. To believe that, would be unreasonable and impractical. You would be an idiot if you believed that and I doubt you're an idiot.

    All begins and ends, with consciousness. Your consciousness for you, is the absolute point of certainty and that's where you're going to have an encounter with God. That's where all of the prophets, received their revelation and communed with God, before there was a bible. It's not a book, that will save you, it's a person. That's the point I'm making.

    Leave a comment:

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