Theology Club: Other than glorification, what is the need for the Holy Spirit in the open view?

BrianJOrr

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I have not seen much work regarding the doctrine of the Spirit in open-view circles. In fact, I don't recall seeing any real treatment whatsoever.

So, do we really need the Spirit, according to the open view? Is the role of the Spirit different in the open view than in the classical or Reformed perspective?

Is the Spirit needed for illumination and sanctification if our wills cannot be changed by the work of the Spirit? Sanctification is the process of our hearts and minds being conformed into that of Christ's. Fallen man's will is enslaved to sin. Paul says Christians minds are set on the Spirit because the Spirit of Christ dwells in us; those who set their mind on the flesh don't have the Spirit; therefore, they cannot submit to Gods law (Romans 8:7-9). The Spirit has to change our hearts, which are willed toward sin and hostile to God's law, in order to submit to the Lordship of Christ.

Don't we pray for God, through the Spirit, to change the hearts of those who are lost in sin?

That is what I pray for:

"God please change the heart of . . . so that he can see your glorious Son; so that he sees his sin nature, which only desires to please his flesh, for he cannot submit to your way. Extend your grace to him Lord. Lord if it be your will, may you grant repentance to him (2 Tim. 2:25)."

How do you pray as an open theist? I feel like as an open theist my prayers would be futile. I know that man only chooses evil continually (Gen. 6:5); therefore, as Jesus says after the rich young ruler turns away from the gift of eternal life, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:27). So, as an open theist, it seems like it would be absurd for me to think it was even possible for any man to be saved apart from the intervention of the Spirit. You can't expect a person to breathe unless he has lungs first. The Spirit gives lungs so that one can breathe and live.

As a Calvinist, I know that because of God, there will be some saved. I would rather have my salvation in God's hands than in my own hands. Wouldn't you?

If God cannot impress his will upon a free human being, removing the scales from his eyes, like Paul, and choose salvation in Christ, then who can be saved? Who will look to Christ without the Spirit and see him as glorious and supreme as he is?

So really, other than the redemption of our bodies, do we really need the Holy Spirit in our lives, according to the open view?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Thanks
 
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BrianJOrr

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Well, if man ultimately chooses God, then man can un-choose him, and God can only let him go, for he won't violate his free-willed decision. Is that an accurate open view understanding?
 

Tambora

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Which open theists on this site suggested our salvation is not in God's hands?
Can you name one?
 

BrianJOrr

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Which open theists on this site suggested our salvation is not in God's hands?
Can you name one?

I am making an assessment based on the published open-view literature (Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice) . Again, is what I stated above accurate? Now, I am sure open theists do believe that their salvation is in the Lord's hands; however, I don't see that their theological position can support that.

So, what about the Spirit? That is the focus of my OP.

Thanks
 

intojoy

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Is there any thing God does not know?
Obviously the evil one asserted this to Eve and she swallowed it.
 

Tambora

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I am making an assessment based on the published open-view literature (Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice) .
I don't believe they post on this site.
Perhaps if you want to argue with their views, you should go where they do post.


Now, I am sure open theists do believe that their salvation is in the Lord's hands;
Great.
So to imply that any here don't think their salvation is in God's hands is bogus.
Just needed to make that clear before going on to your next bogus statement.
 

BrianJOrr

New member
Seriously?

Those few are the main voices advancing this view. The main open theism resource blogs list these guys and their writings as the primary theological literature defining and advocating this view.

Are those in here of a different sect within the open view?
 

Tambora

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Seriously?

Those few are the main voices advancing this view. The main open theism resource blogs list these guys and their writings as the primary theological literature defining and advocating this view.

Are those in here of a different sect within the open view?
I bet they used the same source I use --- scripture.
So why does anyone need to know what those guys say in order to have an open view when anyone can go straight to the source?
 

patrick jane

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I have not seen much work regarding the doctrine of the Spirit in open-view circles. In fact, I don't recall seeing any real treatment whatsoever.

So, do we really need the Spirit, according to the open view? Is the role of the Spirit different in the open view than in the classical or Reformed perspective?

Is the Spirit needed for illumination and sanctification if our wills cannot be changed by the work of the Spirit? Sanctification is the process of our hearts and minds being conformed into that of Christ's. Fallen man's will is enslaved to sin. Paul says Christians minds are set on the Spirit because the Spirit of Christ dwells in us; those who set their mind on the flesh don't have the Spirit; therefore, they cannot submit to Gods law (Romans 8:7-9). The Spirit has to change our hearts, which are willed toward sin and hostile to God's law, in order to submit to the Lordship of Christ.

Don't we pray for God, through the Spirit, to change the hearts of those who are lost in sin?

That is what I pray for:

"God please change the heart of . . . so that he can see your glorious Son; so that he sees his sin nature, which only desires to please his flesh, for he cannot submit to your way. Extend your grace to him Lord. Lord if it be your will, may you grant repentance to him (2 Tim. 2:25)."

How do you pray as an open theist? I feel like as an open theist my prayers would be futile. I know that man only chooses evil continually (Gen. 6:5); therefore, as Jesus says after the rich young ruler turns away from the gift of eternal life, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:27). So, as an open theist, it seems like it would be absurd for me to think it was even possible for any man to be saved apart from the intervention of the Spirit. You can't expect a person to breathe unless he has lungs first. The Spirit gives lungs so that one can breathe and live.

As a Calvinist, I know that because of God, there will be some saved. I would rather have my salvation in God's hands than in my own hands. Wouldn't you?

If God cannot impress his will upon a free human being, removing the scales from his eyes, like Paul, and choose salvation in Christ, then who can be saved? Who will look to Christ without the Spirit and see him as glorious and supreme as he is?

So really, other than the redemption of our bodies, do we really need the Holy Spirit in our lives, according to the open view?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Thanks

there may be some open theists here that disregard the Holy Spirit, but i think you will find that every Christian knows the Holy Spirit is Of God. personally, i know God and the Spirit Are One and many here may agree. maybe you need the evolution- creation thread or urantia w/freelight - so YES, God Is Necessary ! ! ! - :patrol:
 

BrianJOrr

New member
there may be some open theists here that disregard the Holy Spirit, but i think you will find that every Christian knows the Holy Spirit is Of God. personally, i know God and the Spirit Are One and many here may agree. maybe you need the evolution- creation thread or urantia w/freelight - so YES, God Is Necessary ! ! ! - :patrol:

(Side note-Hey, I am glad you are using the real Patrick Jane image. Man, that show is awesome. I just found out about it 3 months ago. So, I've been watching all 6 seasons on Netflix. Just finished the last episode 2 days ago.)

I guess my question sounds strange because the Spirit's role has been ana priori-cal belief of the Christian faith for two millennia. From what I have read in OV literature (i am going to refer to it because that is what I know) regarding its strong hold on libertarian free will and the belief that God does not violate a human's freedom, I don't see how OTs can hold that view in light of what the Scriptures teach us regarding the person and work of the Spirit. It's almost as if that hasn't been thought through yet by the thinkers of the view, hence (I guess) the reason why I have not seen any treatment of that subject. That is why I ask.

Thanks
 

BrianJOrr

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Sect?
You mean like those that are Calvinists, but don't come to the same exact conclusions that other Calvinists come to?

Yes. I differ in certain areas from other Calvinists; however, the use of Calvinism has mostly been a buzzword for one who sees the doctrines of grace in the Scriptures. I would have to say that I think most who call themselves Calvinists, particularly the newbies, have never even read Calvin's Institutes, not realizing that they don't hold all the same views as he did (ecclesiology being a main difference; even on the atonement, which he doesn't explicitly say according to the TULIP acrostic associated with his name, and even predestination). For example, my church is Reformed in its soteriology and most doctrines that fall inline with Calvinism, but I am the only one who has read his entire Institutes (we have 190 people, with a dozen seminary folk and/or theo nerds).

But, that is the interesting aspect of Reformed theology, which points to the consistency of that perspective with Scripture; we don't need Calvin's Institutes--the Scriptures clearly show us the Reformed perspective. Only a handful of people in my church even know who John Calvin is. They believe the historic teachings of the Reformed/Calvistic perspective because they clearly see them in the Scriptures, which are faithfully preached, expositionally, verse-by-verse by our pastors.
 
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