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  • Theology Club: John 6:64

    Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

    John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

    I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

    Thanks
    —Romans 11:36


    http://therantingreformer.com
    https://columbiaseminary.academia.edu/BrianOrr

  • #2
    Anyone?
    —Romans 11:36


    http://therantingreformer.com
    https://columbiaseminary.academia.edu/BrianOrr

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
      Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

      John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

      I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

      Thanks
      for me, that kinda gets into pre-destination, although we must know that God Knows. i take that to mean, God foreknows who will be receptive to His Word, Spirit and Incarnation Of The Word In Jesus Christ. as far as "open", then we can run the gamut, WHICH WILL lead you back to the Bible, IMO. i tried other lines of thought in detail, at length. they all end at God. so, then we must read Paul's letters to the Churches, all Bible Wisdom is contained therein -

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
        Anyone?

        It would be interesting to see a few Open Theists tackle it.

        -Lon
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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        • #5
          The beginning of what?
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
            The beginning of what?
            John 6:64 means either ‘from the beginning’ of Jesus’ ministry...or possibly, as in John 1:1, ‘from the beginning’ absolutely.

            AMR
            Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; March 19th, 2015, 11:48 PM. Reason: More clarity about verse in question
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              John means either ‘from the beginning’ of Jesus’ ministry or possibly, as in John 1:1, ‘from the beginning’ absolutely.

              AMR
              yes, i believe absolutely, John knew how Genesis begins with the same 3 words, and the subsequent verses convey that. coincidence ? -


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
                Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

                John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

                I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

                Thanks
                sorry bo and amr, i responded to John 1:1, not John 6:64. John 6:64, may speak more to His Ministry

                Comment


                • #9
                  From the beginning of their following Him. "From the beginning of His ministry," before the point they came to Him, is substantially no different than from the beginning of creation or earlier.
                  "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                  Terence Mc Lean

                  [most will be very surprised]


                  Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                  By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    a dialogue review of the issue here.

                    Christ being the firstborn of all creation

                    Also created the material world.


                    The Father whom is Spirit has omniscience and is not subject to time and matter rather all creation is subject to His will.

                    The Word limited His omniscience as the first born of creation, to facilitate
                    the creation of angels and his created human children.

                    No Father or creator would while full of love knowingly create a child knowing from the foundation of creation that that child would end up in hell being tormented. Would you. Could you to your children? And how much more is His love greater than ours.

                    So only the Father can see beyond eternity the end result and who would end up in Christ.

                    Christ, with the hope that all men would be saved creates the souls of men.

                    This allows men to be created within the Christs character of love and mercy
                    affirming the scripture 1 tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

                    note the word (desires)

                    also 2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

                    notice the above (wishing) as well as (all)

                    This allows the creative process Christ did to happen with love as well as the desiring of all created men to be saved.

                    there is much more I could bring up to discuss the limiting of ones own omniscience while being in a 3 dimensional material world.

                    But the loving creation of individual men from the foundation of the world as well as Christs (desire) and (wish) that they all be saved goes hand in glove with Christ being the sacrifice for that possibility.
                    He predestines us all for salvation even in his desire and wishing and (will), this allows for ((Whosoever)),
                    but not all will believe and embrace that offer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                      John 6:64 means either ‘from the beginning’ of Jesus’ ministry...or possibly, as in John 1:1, ‘from the beginning’ absolutely.

                      AMR
                      So it couldn't be from the beginning of their following Him?
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                        So it couldn't be from the beginning of their following Him?
                        If we assume Jesus only knew from when He called them, then what about the Father? He was the one doing the giving (to Christ). Was He saying "whoops!"?

                        Jesus, after He had washed the disciples' feet, said this :

                        I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
                        John 13:18

                        In fulfilling Psalm 41:9, Jesus recognized Judas as he who would betray Him. And the first part of the verse seems to be rather strong wording that Jesus knew specifically who He was choosing when He chose the disciples. I have to believe Jesus knew at least from the beginning of His own ministry who He would have to choose.
                        If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                        The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                        Jeremiah 17:9

                        Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                        Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                        Isaiah 50:10-11

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                          If we assume Jesus only knew from when He called them, then what about the Father? He was the one doing the giving (to Christ). Was He saying "whoops!"?
                          Why do you assume God didn't do it on purpose?

                          Jesus, after He had washed the disciples' feet, said this :

                          I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
                          John 13:18

                          In fulfilling Psalm 41:9, Jesus recognized Judas as he who would betray Him. And the first part of the verse seems to be rather strong wording that Jesus knew specifically who He was choosing when He chose the disciples. I have to believe Jesus knew at least from the beginning of His own ministry who He would have to choose.
                          Just to clarify, you are saying that He knew He would have to choose one person to follow Him that would betray Him?
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            Why do you assume God didn't do it on purpose?


                            Just to clarify, you are saying that He knew He would have to choose one person to follow Him that would betray Him?
                            I'm saying Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry (if not before):

                            1. That He was to choose someone who would fulfill the scripture.
                            2. That the Father was to give Him someone specific.
                            3. That He knew - specifically - who this was before even seeing him.
                            If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                            The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                            Jeremiah 17:9

                            Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                            Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                            Isaiah 50:10-11

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                              Why do you assume God didn't do it on purpose?
                              I do. I assume God knew specifically what would have to happen long before Jesus appeared and determined what and who.
                              If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                              The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                              Jeremiah 17:9

                              Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                              Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                              Isaiah 50:10-11

                              Comment

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