Theology Club: A Question for Open Theists

BrianJOrr

New member
God enabled me to exercise my own will. Not influenced, not forced, but I chose him. And without him I could not do anything. But he enabled me to use my will to choose.

Define 'enable'?

And how is your will not influenced by the Spirit?

What is 'regeneration'?
 

intojoy

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Define 'enable'?



And how is your will not influenced by the Spirit?



What is 'regeneration'?


Divine enablement means when God elected me to salvation from eternity past I was required to believe the plan of salvation - the gospel but because of total depravity I could not believe God or come to God on my own, he had to draw me and enable me to carry out that which he elected me to do which was to accept the gospel message. Influenced is another way of looking at this but I think the better term is divine enabling. God provided the ability for the elect to come to the Son by faith and when we do we are regenerated. What Adam lost was spiritual life, he became spiritually dead but when he believed God his spirit was made alive within him and he once again could fellowship with God.
 

Lon

Well-known member
God enabled me to
By gift? Was the 'ability' to choose sin God's design? Matthew 6:24 Luke 16:13
exercise my own will
Jeremiah 10:23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man does not belong to man; it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are of Jehovah; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know what I have planned for you,'says the LORD. 'I have plans to prosper you, not to harm you. I have plans to give you a future filled with hope.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 3:5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will.

Psa 33:9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood.
Psa 33:10 Jehovah brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He breaks the plots of the people.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of Jehovah stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah; the people He has chosen for His inheritance.
Psa 33:13 Jehovah looks down from Heaven; He beholds all the sons of mankind.
Psa 33:14 From His dwelling place He looks on all the people of the earth.
Psa 33:15 Together He forms their hearts; His understanding is to all their works.

Psa 37:18 Jehovah knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by Jehovah; and He delights in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be cast down; for Jehovah upholds his hand.

Job 14:5 For his days are fixed, the number of his months is with You, and You have set his bounds so that he cannot pass;

Isaiah 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;
Isaiah 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it.

Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
It is true you chose and that God directs.
Not influenced, not forced, but I chose him.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
And without him I could not do anything.
1 John 4:10
But he enabled me to use my will to choose.
Yes, not sure how 'enabled' is different from 'influenced' though :idunno: Guided vs. forced?
Acts 8:26 God can force me wherever he likes. There is no sanctity of my will, only His.
 

intojoy

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By gift? Was the 'ability' to choose sin God's design? Matthew 6:24 Luke 16:13


It is true you chose and that God directs.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
And without him I could not do anything.
1 John 4:10

Yes, not sure how 'enabled' is different from 'influenced' though :idunno: Guided vs. forced?
Acts 8:26 God can force me wherever he likes. There is no sanctity of my will, only His.


Your first question: Was the 'ability' to choose sin God's design?

I was born already a sinner and already condemned on my way to hell
 

intojoy

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By gift? Was the 'ability' to choose sin God's design? Matthew 6:24 Luke 16:13


It is true you chose and that God directs.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
And without him I could not do anything.
1 John 4:10

Yes, not sure how 'enabled' is different from 'influenced' though :idunno: Guided vs. forced?
Acts 8:26 God can force me wherever he likes. There is no sanctity of my will, only His.


"enabled' is different from 'influenced' "

Influenced means God forced me to believe

Enabled means God let me do the believing
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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So, if God influences your will to choose Christ, is he not violating your free will for his purposes, since your natural, free will 'does not seek God' (Rom. 3:11) nor can it to 'submit to God's law' (Rom. 8:7-8)?
If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.

If man in his fallen nature naturally chooses sin, meaning it is his nature and will to only sin, is not God's supernatural changing of your will to want to choose Christ, proclaiming him as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3), a violation of your natural free will, which freely doesn't want to choose him?
Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.

Divine enablement means when God elected me to salvation from eternity past I was required to believe the plan of salvation - the gospel but because of total depravity I could not believe God or come to God on my own, he had to draw me and enable me to carry out that which he elected me to do which was to accept the gospel message. Influenced is another way of looking at this but I think the better term is divine enabling. God provided the ability for the elect to come to the Son by faith and when we do we are regenerated. What Adam lost was spiritual life, he became spiritually dead but when he believed God his spirit was made alive within him and he once again could fellowship with God.
This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.
 

BrianJOrr

New member
If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.


Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.


This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.

Your assumption is faulty. The Scripture does not say that man can if his will is convinced to follow God's law; rather, man apart from the Spirit cannot submit. Carnal man lives by the flesh.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23).


"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

One is only persuaded to choose when God has given him a new heart, spiritual regeneration of his heart of stone, to obey and submit to his law. Only then can he see clearly which path leads to righteousness (the kingdom) and which path leads to damnation.

Jesus explains how one can see the kingdom:

"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).

Where in this passage do you see one who is born of the flesh having his carnal mind persuaded to see the kingdom, so he can choose to enter it? You don't. He cannot see it. That's the point! That's why Nicodemus was baffled; he was theteacher of Israel and you would think of all people he would have been able to see it.

He had to be born again, which is up to the will of the Spirit, not man.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

However, its important that you understand that it is not the Spirit forcing man to choose (I see that is a misconception among OTs). Man has already made his choice (Romans 1), so God gave him over to the consequence of their folly. But when the Spirit comes and penetrates man's heart, through the preaching of the gospel, it gives him a new heart of flesh, which freely sees, desires, and chooses Christ, turning from sin, and freely submitting to God's law.

No forcing or coercion of man's will in any way; rather, God extends his grace by doing a supernatural work in the dead heart, which only desires to serve idols, to serve the living God.

That is amazing grace.
 

intojoy

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If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.


Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.


This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.


Not my fault
 

intojoy

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Lmbo - laugh my butt off

How foolish an answer.

Is there anything God does not know?

"He does not know when he will return"

Hohoho
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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Hall of Fame
Your assumption is faulty. The Scripture does not say that man can if his will is convinced to follow God's law; rather, man apart from the Spirit cannot submit. Carnal man lives by the flesh.
But the carnal mind can be transformed.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23).
What version are you quoting? That phrasing is grammatically atrocious.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

One is only persuaded to choose when God has given him a new heart, spiritual regeneration of his heart of stone, to obey and submit to his law. Only then can he see clearly which path leads to righteousness (the kingdom) and which path leads to damnation.
Do you have Scripture that states that?

Jesus explains how one can see the kingdom:

"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).

Where in this passage do you see one who is born of the flesh having his carnal mind persuaded to see the kingdom, so he can choose to enter it? You don't. He cannot see it. That's the point! That's why Nicodemus was baffled; he was theteacher of Israel and you would think of all people he would have been able to see it.

He had to be born again, which is up to the will of the Spirit, not man.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

However, its important that you understand that it is not the Spirit forcing man to choose (I see that is a misconception among OTs). Man has already made his choice (Romans 1), so God gave him over to the consequence of their folly. But when the Spirit comes and penetrates man's heart, through the preaching of the gospel, it gives him a new heart of flesh, which freely sees, desires, and chooses Christ, turning from sin, and freely submitting to God's law.

No forcing or coercion of man's will in any way; rather, God extends his grace by doing a supernatural work in the dead heart, which only desires to serve idols, to serve the living God.

That is amazing grace.
Forget trying to debate; you're going to present nothing but circular logic.

How about you explain why God, according to you, chooses not to regenerate some people.

Not my fault
It is your fault you answered the question from the POV of a Calvinist.

Here's a Question Lighthouse -
Is there anything God doesn't know?
Of course. There are things He doesn't want to know, and things that hae yet to happen.

Lmbo - laugh my butt off

How foolish an answer.

Is there anything God does not know?

"He does not know when he will return"

Hohoho
That is not what he said.
 
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