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A Question for Open Theists

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  • Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    So, if God influences your will to choose Christ, is he not violating your free will for his purposes, since your natural, free will 'does not seek God' (Rom. 3:11) nor can it to 'submit to God's law' (Rom. 8:7-8)?
    If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.

    If man in his fallen nature naturally chooses sin, meaning it is his nature and will to only sin, is not God's supernatural changing of your will to want to choose Christ, proclaiming him as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3), a violation of your natural free will, which freely doesn't want to choose him?
    Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.

    Originally posted by intojoy View Post
    Divine enablement means when God elected me to salvation from eternity past I was required to believe the plan of salvation - the gospel but because of total depravity I could not believe God or come to God on my own, he had to draw me and enable me to carry out that which he elected me to do which was to accept the gospel message. Influenced is another way of looking at this but I think the better term is divine enabling. God provided the ability for the elect to come to the Son by faith and when we do we are regenerated. What Adam lost was spiritual life, he became spiritually dead but when he believed God his spirit was made alive within him and he once again could fellowship with God.
    This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.
    sigpic

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    • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
      This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists.
      It looks more like it was opened so that Bore could have a link to go with his straw men.
      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
      E≈mc2
      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
      -Bob B.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
        It looks more like it was opened so that Bore could have a link to go with his straw men.
        That too.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • Somewhere out there he is saying that open theism cannot be true because someone called him a moron. Link.
          Where is the evidence for a global flood?
          E≈mc2
          "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

          "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
          -Bob B.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
            If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.


            Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.


            This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.
            Your assumption is faulty. The Scripture does not say that man can if his will is convinced to follow God's law; rather, man apart from the Spirit cannot submit. Carnal man lives by the flesh.

            "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23).


            "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

            One is only persuaded to choose when God has given him a new heart, spiritual regeneration of his heart of stone, to obey and submit to his law. Only then can he see clearly which path leads to righteousness (the kingdom) and which path leads to damnation.

            Jesus explains how one can see the kingdom:

            "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).

            Where in this passage do you see one who is born of the flesh having his carnal mind persuaded to see the kingdom, so he can choose to enter it? You don't. He cannot see it. That's the point! That's why Nicodemus was baffled; he was theteacher of Israel and you would think of all people he would have been able to see it.

            He had to be born again, which is up to the will of the Spirit, not man.
            "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

            However, its important that you understand that it is not the Spirit forcing man to choose (I see that is a misconception among OTs). Man has already made his choice (Romans 1), so God gave him over to the consequence of their folly. But when the Spirit comes and penetrates man's heart, through the preaching of the gospel, it gives him a new heart of flesh, which freely sees, desires, and chooses Christ, turning from sin, and freely submitting to God's law.

            No forcing or coercion of man's will in any way; rather, God extends his grace by doing a supernatural work in the dead heart, which only desires to serve idols, to serve the living God.

            That is amazing grace.
            —Romans 11:36


            http://therantingreformer.com
            https://columbiaseminary.academia.edu/BrianOrr

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
              If you and I disagree on something and I show you something that convinces you that I am right then I have influenced you, but I have not violated your will.


              Now you're making assumptions about the will of man and what it wants.


              This thread was opened to ask a question of open theists, not Calvinists.

              Not my fault

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                Somewhere out there he is saying that open theism cannot be true because someone called him a moron. Link.
                technically, how can "open theism" be "true" ? IT can't and isn't -


                Comment


                • Here's a Question Lighthouse -
                  Is there anything God doesn't know?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                    technically, how can "open theism" be "true" ? IT can't and isn't - :Patrol
                    Did someone say it was?
                    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                    E≈mc2
                    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                    -Bob B.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                      Is there anything God doesn't know?
                      He did not when He would return.
                      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                      E≈mc2
                      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                      -Bob B.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                        He did not when He would return.

                        Lmbo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                          Lmbo
                          Something wrong?
                          Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                          E≈mc2
                          "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                          "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                          -Bob B.

                          Comment


                          • Lmbo - laugh my butt off

                            How foolish an answer.

                            Is there anything God does not know?

                            "He does not know when he will return"

                            Hohoho

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                              How foolish an answer.
                              Suit yourself.
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
                                Your assumption is faulty. The Scripture does not say that man can if his will is convinced to follow God's law; rather, man apart from the Spirit cannot submit. Carnal man lives by the flesh.
                                But the carnal mind can be transformed.

                                "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23).
                                What version are you quoting? That phrasing is grammatically atrocious.

                                "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
                                You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

                                One is only persuaded to choose when God has given him a new heart, spiritual regeneration of his heart of stone, to obey and submit to his law. Only then can he see clearly which path leads to righteousness (the kingdom) and which path leads to damnation.
                                Do you have Scripture that states that?

                                Jesus explains how one can see the kingdom:

                                "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8).

                                Where in this passage do you see one who is born of the flesh having his carnal mind persuaded to see the kingdom, so he can choose to enter it? You don't. He cannot see it. That's the point! That's why Nicodemus was baffled; he was theteacher of Israel and you would think of all people he would have been able to see it.

                                He had to be born again, which is up to the will of the Spirit, not man.
                                "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

                                However, its important that you understand that it is not the Spirit forcing man to choose (I see that is a misconception among OTs). Man has already made his choice (Romans 1), so God gave him over to the consequence of their folly. But when the Spirit comes and penetrates man's heart, through the preaching of the gospel, it gives him a new heart of flesh, which freely sees, desires, and chooses Christ, turning from sin, and freely submitting to God's law.

                                No forcing or coercion of man's will in any way; rather, God extends his grace by doing a supernatural work in the dead heart, which only desires to serve idols, to serve the living God.

                                That is amazing grace.
                                Forget trying to debate; you're going to present nothing but circular logic.

                                How about you explain why God, according to you, chooses not to regenerate some people.

                                Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                                Not my fault
                                It is your fault you answered the question from the POV of a Calvinist.

                                Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                                Here's a Question Lighthouse -
                                Is there anything God doesn't know?
                                Of course. There are things He doesn't want to know, and things that hae yet to happen.

                                Originally posted by intojoy View Post
                                Lmbo - laugh my butt off

                                How foolish an answer.

                                Is there anything God does not know?

                                "He does not know when he will return"

                                Hohoho
                                That is not what he said.
                                sigpic

                                Comment

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