Theology Club: Calvin, Spurgeon, Moody and 'arry Moorhouse

The 5 solas

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Wesley was an Anglican priest and even to this day the articles are Calvinistic. Wesley believed in prevenient grace, he did look for the Holy Spirit to first quicken and then to move the human will.

What Wesley could not bear was that God should have predestined any for damnation.

The split between himself and Whitefield was more a clash of personalities than doctrinal....Wesley was imperious, he did still think rather that Whitefield was his minor. He probably did think that perfection was achievable, certainly he believed it ought to be aspired to.

Everything I have ever read has indicated that he was indeed an arminian on all five points. After reading your post, I started to look up different articles on the subject and I see nothing that indicates otherwise. I am definitely open to see examples of his sermons or writings that indicate that is not so.
 

The 5 solas

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Yes you will always have an answer but you are wrong. Christ did not come for intellectuals.

Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
 

Psalmist

Blessed is the man that......
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This a good thread, been reading through it, I have no bones to pick about it. There's a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that makes for healthy debate; this thread also gives us the opportunity to understand both groups.

I really don't have a lot to contribute; if memory serves me right, since we belong to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) a very conservative Pentecostal church, it leans toward the Arminianism doctrine; I'll have to read again "This Is That" a publication about ICFG, by Sister Aimee McPherson in part; and the ICFG declaration of faith, this we believe; the Moody's "Here We Stand" declaration of faith.

Here are two things worth reading from Charles H. Spurgeon...

All Of Grace ... www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

The Greatest Fight In The World ... www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm

I'll try to find something from D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, G. Campbell Morgan on the topic of this thread.

Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"
 
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Totton Linnet

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What would this "green light" be to you exactly?

AMR

Obviously I am not Paul but we read he would have gone through Asia but the Spirit of Christ prevented him. [I have the same Lord as Paul]

It doesn't say how.

Do you have any check on you from the Lord to reading anything? can you watch anything at all on telly? go watch any film you like in the cinema? I am not here likening any these things to Calvin theology of course but when you feel checked how does the check come?

Do you ask the Lord to guide you in what to read? are you your own, do you have freewill?

Is not reading to have a one way conversation with somebody? are you not imbibing? did we not ought to be terribly circumspect?

What if the Lord only decided that I was not yet mature enough? and at sometime later would have me to study Calvin at length....
 

Totton Linnet

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This a good thread, been reading through it, I have no bones to pick about it. There's a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that makes for healthy debate; this thread also gives us the opportunity to understand both groups.

I really don't have a lot to contribute; if memory serves me right, since we belong to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) a very conservative Pentecostal church, it leans toward the Arminianism doctrine; I'll have to read again "This Is That" a publication about ICFG, by Sister Aimee McPherson in part; and the ICFG declaration of faith, this we believe; the Moody's "Here We Stand" declaration of faith.

Here are two things worth reading from Charles H. Spurgeon...

All Of Grace ... www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

The Greatest Fight In The World ... www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm

I'll try to find something from D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, G. Campbell Morgan on the topic of this thread.

Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"

I was chatting really :) I understand why the two camps must be separate, I am not sure why they have to be such bitter enemies. They always have been.

I can never be Calvinist until they clear up the question of Reprobation and "Double Predestiny" yet I applaud the doctrines of Sovereignty and Free Grace, Predestination and Election.

I despise the doctrines of Conditional Salvation and the idea that man has freewill.

It is a matter of history that Pentecostalism came up through the Arminian camp...THAT to me is the weakness of it, the weakness is more apparent in the Charismatic churches than in the Pentecostal churches.
 

Totton Linnet

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Everything I have ever read has indicated that he was indeed an arminian on all five points. After reading your post, I started to look up different articles on the subject and I see nothing that indicates otherwise. I am definitely open to see examples of his sermons or writings that indicate that is not so.

But he wasn't that's the thing, Wesley is much harder to categorise than that. He did not seem to have a systematic theology.

One guiding factor through all his life was his own experience of salvation at Aldersgate St. It burned into him as no learned theology would the futility of human will and effort in the matter of salvation.

His "Methodism" applies to his pre-saved Oxford days, the name stuck. I haven't read Wesley extensively but it seems clear to me that in his preaching he looked for the operation of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of his hearers ...we can't imagine him asking for people to "make a decision."

He was decidedly against the Calvin doctrine of Reprobation.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
I really like Phil Johnson and think that his teachings are pretty sound.

I do too. I'm respectfully criticizing someone I like here.

I certainly do not view Pink as a hyper calvinist at all, so perhaps I need to look more closely at my understanding of it.

Pink believed that God had no love whatsoever for the non-elect. I don't know whether he believed in common grace or not. But he didn't hold to any of the other "hyper-calvinist" points. So I'd consider him a very high Calvinist, not a hyper-calvinist. The same for Gordon Clark and John Robbins.


In my own personal experience, which is never anything but subjective, I know...I have never met a true hyper-calvinist, so it is all theory to me.

Neither have I. There really aren't that many of them. A lot of times its a phantom that people use to describe people who are more extreme than them.



I had the understanding that hyper calvinists, although definitely not big on preaching the gospel....did think that the elect should hear it. That is one of the problems though, right? You cannot tell who the elect are before they are saved.

Yeah, that would be a problem. But I didn't say ALL hyper-calvinists believe that. There are some who say God doesn't use means at all. But others say that there is no general call for all without exception to repent, or that the non-elect are not responsible to respond to this call. These people are hypers as well.

Yes, I can understand why you say this about the connotation of hyper calvinism. I clearly have more to learn. It does irk me when people do misuse that term and paint all Calvinists with it.

Its somewhat subjective and people still argue over this. I try to reserve the term only for actual heresies and not orthodox, if Biblically questionable, viewpoints that are more extreme than what I would hold yet don't necessarily threaten sound gospel preaching.

For what its worth, wikipedia combines the "hyper-calvinist" and supralapsarian positions into one article and says that they are the same thing, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm more infra.
I have never heard of Predestinarian Network, is that really something on tv? Betcha they don't have high ratings! lol

No, its not really something on TV. Its a website. Go ahead and look it up, but don't waste too much time:p
Oh I agree. I think I am majorly failing in expressing myself. I do not wish to put across the idea that I am some kind of all inclusive, wishy washy person who thinks everyone who says Lord Lord, is saved. I do think that I am reacting to the general feeling on this board where everyone is so quick to judge others and send them on their way to hell because of some of their doctrines. I have never been told I am not a Christian and that I am going to hell, as many times as I have in these two weeks, compared to all the rest of my life! lol

Yeah, I got you. Don't let it get to you. It depends on which doctrines for me.


I would say no because they are putting their faith in the act of Baptism, instead of the finished work of Jesus Christ. They believe it is salvific, which it is not.

I hold the same position, despite the fact that the issue isn't mentioned in the creed. Hence why I'd hesitate to say that anyone who confesses the creed is saved.

John Wesley was a 5 point arminian, soteriologically. He would have held views such as perfectionism, which are not arminian, but with regards to salvation he held to all 5 points.

I would be interested to know why you think that he was not.

Are you still confident that he was saved even though he is a perfectionist? What about 1 John 1:8?

I don't think we need to play the "judge the fates of dead people" game but I do find it somewhat odd why so many Calvinists assume Wesley was a man of God despite his doctrine. Interestingly, Toplady thought he was satanic at the time, and I'm not 100% convinced that he was wrong.
 

The 5 solas

New member
Pink believed that God had no love whatsoever for the non-elect. I don't know whether he believed in common grace or not. But he didn't hold to any of the other "hyper-calvinist" points. So I'd consider him a very high Calvinist, not a hyper-calvinist. The same for Gordon Clark and John Robbins.

It is interesting because, since I initially wrote my response to you, I had an opportunity to speak about this to my Pastor. He also said that Pink had those leanings and that although he would not label him a hyper calvinist himself, there was definitely a reason to understand why some did call him that. Sounds like the same thing you are saying.

For what its worth, wikipedia combines the "hyper-calvinist" and supralapsarian positions into one article and says that they are the same thing, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm more infra.

There are definitely nuances they are missing in good ole wiki on this issue. I am supra but I am certainly not a hyper-calvinist.

I hold the same position, despite the fact that the issue isn't mentioned in the creed. Hence why I'd hesitate to say that anyone who confesses the creed is saved.

I had rethought my own statement and totally agree with your hesitation. Although the Apostle's Creed is valuable, it is not exhaustive. Most "Christian" denominations would say they accept the creed, yet in reality they have additions or doctrines that would make it moot. I was looking at it from my own point of reference and forgot that others do not have the same framework. Good call!

Are you still confident that he was saved even though he is a perfectionist? What about 1 John 1:8?

I don't think we need to play the "judge the fates of dead people" game but I do find it somewhat odd why so many Calvinists assume Wesley was a man of God despite his doctrine. Interestingly, Toplady thought he was satanic at the time, and I'm not 100% convinced that he was wrong.

Excellent verse to point out in this circumstance. I do not know what the condition of his soul was, nor does anyone. I like to think there is reason to hope, but that changes nothing. My guess on the question there is that we are often portrayed as the Frozen Chosen and so staunch, maybe the Calvi's are trying to be gracious. lol Wesley was never one that we studied because he was off doctrinally, so that ends my comment on John.

Thank you for your input and being so gracious to dialogue with.
 

The 5 solas

New member


Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"


I am a Christian, I fellowship at a Reformed Baptist church and I embrace the Doctrines of Grace...all 5 points.
I am more than willing to dialogue with people whose doctrine differs from my own and be civil and kind to them :)
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
It is interesting because, since I initially wrote my response to you, I had an opportunity to speak about this to my Pastor. He also said that Pink had those leanings and that although he would not label him a hyper calvinist himself, there was definitely a reason to understand why some did call him that. Sounds like the same thing you are saying.

I understand.



There are definitely nuances they are missing in good ole wiki on this issue. I am supra but I am certainly not a hyper-calvinist.

Yes, I agree.

I had rethought my own statement and totally agree with your hesitation. Although the Apostle's Creed is valuable, it is not exhaustive. Most "Christian" denominations would say they accept the creed, yet in reality they have additions or doctrines that would make it moot. I was looking at it from my own point of reference and forgot that others do not have the same framework. Good call!
This.
Excellent verse to point out in this circumstance. I do not know what the condition of his soul was, nor does anyone. I like to think there is reason to hope, but that changes nothing. My guess on the question there is that we are often portrayed as the Frozen Chosen and so staunch, maybe the Calvi's are trying to be gracious. lol Wesley was never one that we studied because he was off doctrinally, so that ends my comment on John.

We certainly have no idea whether he's in heaven or hell. The question that's more pertinent to me is whether he taught damnable heresy. I can't say with 100% certainty that Joseph Smith is in Hell, but we know based on his teachings that he was a false prophet and that he was certainly not a Christian during his public ministry. God could of course have saved him on his deathbed or whatever.

By contrast, someone like Charles Spurgeon is filled with evidence based on his doctrine and his life that he was one of God's.

I'm not sure I see the evidence, based on what little I've seen from him, that John Wesley was saved during his public ministry. And I find it somewhat odd that so many Calvinists assume that he was. Its certainly possible that he was, and I hope that he was, but I just don't see doctrinal orthodoxy. I could definitely see a new believer having theological errors as long as those errors do not involve a works-based gospel, even if they believe certain things that are inconsistent with the true gospel. But, I think such a person would eventually start to see the light, or at least not call the correct doctrines "doctrines of demons" and so forth. I'm not sure where the line is between being too judgmental and not being judgmental enough, and I try to be careful not to go to extremes in either direction.
Thank you for your input and being so gracious to dialogue with.
You are welcome. God bless:)
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God's Love is redemptive and in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original its the Love of God with the definite article, so its an exclusive Love of God, now that said, Yes God has a considerate providence towards all men, elect and non elect alike Matt 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This is not His Redemptive and exclusive Love in Christ Jesus.

An example may help here to explain what is meant, Say a Jailor who has care over 100 prisoners, vile men, and one of them is his own son, just as vile as the others, difference being thats his son, and all prisoners being under his charge and care until their final judgment falls upon them, he has an responsibility to give them the common necessities of life to preserve them to that day. He feeds them, gives them water, takes them out for air and exercise, but for one of those vile men, He actually has a special Love for, though by the standards of prision life he treats the son no better than the others with the common necessities of life, or treats them no less, only difference is he has an special love for his son ! The Jailor exercises the same common care over all the prisoners, but he loves only one of them.

Now, The children of God , we treat all men, as much as in us is, with all due consideration. Lets imagine, if one i know is an staunch blasphemer and hates the God I Love and serve, lets say that one day I see that person on the highway, they have just been shot and i pull over and see its my enemy in the Gospel and they need medical attention quick, lest they die, it would move me out of common cilvity and appreciation out of their physical well being, to do what i can to faciliatate their life being preserved, my differences in faith is not a consideration, though when it comes to that, I hate them, and wish them accursed Gal 1:8-9, but when it comes to being able to help preserve their life, I am moved with common and natural affection of compassion for my fellow creature ! Hence thats what Jesus means:

Lk 10:30-37

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

That word compassion means:

I.to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)

This is not brotherly love, certainly not redemptive Love but more of a civil affection for our fellow creature, we are not without natural affection as stated here 2 Tim 33:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

That word natural affection actually means unloving, naturally !
 

Shasta

Well-known member
God's Love is redemptive and in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original its the Love of God with the definite article, so its an exclusive Love of God, now that said, Yes God has a considerate providence towards all men, elect and non elect alike Matt 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This is not His Redemptive and exclusive Love in Christ Jesus.

An example may help here to explain what is meant, Say a Jailor who has care over 100 prisoners, vile men, and one of them is his own son, just as vile as the others, difference being thats his son, and all prisoners being under his charge and care until their final judgment falls upon them, he has an responsibility to give them the common necessities of life to preserve them to that day. He feeds them, gives them water, takes them out for air and exercise, but for one of those vile men, He actually has a special Love for, though by the standards of prision life he treats the son no better than the others with the common necessities of life, or treats them no less, only difference is he has an special love for his son ! The Jailor exercises the same common care over all the prisoners, but he loves only one of them.

Now, The children of God , we treat all men, as much as in us is, with all due consideration. Lets imagine, if one i know is an staunch blasphemer and hates the God I Love and serve, lets say that one day I see that person on the highway, they have just been shot and i pull over and see its my enemy in the Gospel and they need medical attention quick, lest they die, it would move me out of common cilvity and appreciation out of their physical well being, to do what i can to faciliatate their life being preserved, my differences in faith is not a consideration, though when it comes to that, I hate them, and wish them accursed Gal 1:8-9, but when it comes to being able to help preserve their life, I am moved with common and natural affection of compassion for my fellow creature ! Hence thats what Jesus means:

Lk 10:30-37



That word compassion means:

I.to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)

This is not brotherly love, certainly not redemptive Love but more of a civil affection for our fellow creature, we are not without natural affection as stated here 2 Tim 33:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

That word natural affection actually means unloving, naturally !

So your jailor keeps thousands of prisoners caged while they await their inevitable sentence of being incinerated. He makes food and water available to them. Sometimes he even urges them to passionately to take, eat and drink at no cost. The trick is that he has not given them mouths. He could do so. Sometimes he does. Basically though he operates on a tiny minority. At least God is "civil." If all you have is "civility" for people then know little about the love of God. More is required of us than preaching correct doctrine, doing our religious duty and being nice people.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
shasta

So your jailor keeps thousands of prisoners caged while they await their inevitable sentence of being incinerated.

You quoted from post 33 and then evaded from the points I made, did you understand all the points I made ? Please review them with me in your next post ! Thanks !
 

Lon

Well-known member
The trick is that he has not given them mouths.
:nono: If they are born without mouths, it is themselves that have done it. Man was no created with this sin disorder to ignore God and live autonomously.
 
I am a Christian, I fellowship at a Reformed Baptist church and I embrace the Doctrines of Grace...all 5 points.
I am more than willing to dialogue with people whose doctrine differs from my own and be civil and kind to them :)

Finding people here willing to dialogue with you, regarding T-U-L-I-P and the five solas, in a civil manner maybe too much to ask for.
 

The 5 solas

New member
Finding people here willing to dialogue with you, regarding T-U-L-I-P and the five solas, in a civil manner maybe too much to ask for.

Oh I am well aware of that now that I have been here for a month's time. There are a handful of people on here who embrace the Doctrines of Grace. There are also a few who do not but are civilized enough to engage in discussion without it spiraling down into juvenile namecalling. When I desire to truly have serious dialogue of that manner, it is not here that I post.
 
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