Plumb foolish.
Wesley was an Anglican priest and even to this day the articles are Calvinistic. Wesley believed in prevenient grace, he did look for the Holy Spirit to first quicken and then to move the human will.
What Wesley could not bear was that God should have predestined any for damnation.
The split between himself and Whitefield was more a clash of personalities than doctrinal....Wesley was imperious, he did still think rather that Whitefield was his minor. He probably did think that perfection was achievable, certainly he believed it ought to be aspired to.
Yes you will always have an answer but you are wrong. Christ did not come for intellectuals.
I have never gotten the green light from the Lord to read Calvin
What would this "green light" be to you exactly?
AMR
This a good thread, been reading through it, I have no bones to pick about it. There's a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that makes for healthy debate; this thread also gives us the opportunity to understand both groups.
I really don't have a lot to contribute; if memory serves me right, since we belong to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) a very conservative Pentecostal church, it leans toward the Arminianism doctrine; I'll have to read again "This Is That" a publication about ICFG, by Sister Aimee McPherson in part; and the ICFG declaration of faith, this we believe; the Moody's "Here We Stand" declaration of faith.
Here are two things worth reading from Charles H. Spurgeon...
All Of Grace ... www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm
The Greatest Fight In The World ... www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm
I'll try to find something from D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, G. Campbell Morgan on the topic of this thread.
Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"
Everything I have ever read has indicated that he was indeed an arminian on all five points. After reading your post, I started to look up different articles on the subject and I see nothing that indicates otherwise. I am definitely open to see examples of his sermons or writings that indicate that is not so.
I really like Phil Johnson and think that his teachings are pretty sound.
I certainly do not view Pink as a hyper calvinist at all, so perhaps I need to look more closely at my understanding of it.
In my own personal experience, which is never anything but subjective, I know...I have never met a true hyper-calvinist, so it is all theory to me.
I had the understanding that hyper calvinists, although definitely not big on preaching the gospel....did think that the elect should hear it. That is one of the problems though, right? You cannot tell who the elect are before they are saved.
Yes, I can understand why you say this about the connotation of hyper calvinism. I clearly have more to learn. It does irk me when people do misuse that term and paint all Calvinists with it.
I have never heard of Predestinarian Network, is that really something on tv? Betcha they don't have high ratings! lol
Oh I agree. I think I am majorly failing in expressing myself. I do not wish to put across the idea that I am some kind of all inclusive, wishy washy person who thinks everyone who says Lord Lord, is saved. I do think that I am reacting to the general feeling on this board where everyone is so quick to judge others and send them on their way to hell because of some of their doctrines. I have never been told I am not a Christian and that I am going to hell, as many times as I have in these two weeks, compared to all the rest of my life! lol
I would say no because they are putting their faith in the act of Baptism, instead of the finished work of Jesus Christ. They believe it is salvific, which it is not.
John Wesley was a 5 point arminian, soteriologically. He would have held views such as perfectionism, which are not arminian, but with regards to salvation he held to all 5 points.
I would be interested to know why you think that he was not.
Pink believed that God had no love whatsoever for the non-elect. I don't know whether he believed in common grace or not. But he didn't hold to any of the other "hyper-calvinist" points. So I'd consider him a very high Calvinist, not a hyper-calvinist. The same for Gordon Clark and John Robbins.
For what its worth, wikipedia combines the "hyper-calvinist" and supralapsarian positions into one article and says that they are the same thing, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm more infra.
I hold the same position, despite the fact that the issue isn't mentioned in the creed. Hence why I'd hesitate to say that anyone who confesses the creed is saved.
Are you still confident that he was saved even though he is a perfectionist? What about 1 John 1:8?
I don't think we need to play the "judge the fates of dead people" game but I do find it somewhat odd why so many Calvinists assume Wesley was a man of God despite his doctrine. Interestingly, Toplady thought he was satanic at the time, and I'm not 100% convinced that he was wrong.
Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"
It is interesting because, since I initially wrote my response to you, I had an opportunity to speak about this to my Pastor. He also said that Pink had those leanings and that although he would not label him a hyper calvinist himself, there was definitely a reason to understand why some did call him that. Sounds like the same thing you are saying.
There are definitely nuances they are missing in good ole wiki on this issue. I am supra but I am certainly not a hyper-calvinist.
This.I had rethought my own statement and totally agree with your hesitation. Although the Apostle's Creed is valuable, it is not exhaustive. Most "Christian" denominations would say they accept the creed, yet in reality they have additions or doctrines that would make it moot. I was looking at it from my own point of reference and forgot that others do not have the same framework. Good call!
Excellent verse to point out in this circumstance. I do not know what the condition of his soul was, nor does anyone. I like to think there is reason to hope, but that changes nothing. My guess on the question there is that we are often portrayed as the Frozen Chosen and so staunch, maybe the Calvi's are trying to be gracious. lol Wesley was never one that we studied because he was off doctrinally, so that ends my comment on John.
You are welcome. God blessThank you for your input and being so gracious to dialogue with.
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
God's Love is redemptive and in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In the original its the Love of God with the definite article, so its an exclusive Love of God, now that said, Yes God has a considerate providence towards all men, elect and non elect alike Matt 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
This is not His Redemptive and exclusive Love in Christ Jesus.
An example may help here to explain what is meant, Say a Jailor who has care over 100 prisoners, vile men, and one of them is his own son, just as vile as the others, difference being thats his son, and all prisoners being under his charge and care until their final judgment falls upon them, he has an responsibility to give them the common necessities of life to preserve them to that day. He feeds them, gives them water, takes them out for air and exercise, but for one of those vile men, He actually has a special Love for, though by the standards of prision life he treats the son no better than the others with the common necessities of life, or treats them no less, only difference is he has an special love for his son ! The Jailor exercises the same common care over all the prisoners, but he loves only one of them.
Now, The children of God , we treat all men, as much as in us is, with all due consideration. Lets imagine, if one i know is an staunch blasphemer and hates the God I Love and serve, lets say that one day I see that person on the highway, they have just been shot and i pull over and see its my enemy in the Gospel and they need medical attention quick, lest they die, it would move me out of common cilvity and appreciation out of their physical well being, to do what i can to faciliatate their life being preserved, my differences in faith is not a consideration, though when it comes to that, I hate them, and wish them accursed Gal 1:8-9, but when it comes to being able to help preserve their life, I am moved with common and natural affection of compassion for my fellow creature ! Hence thats what Jesus means:
Lk 10:30-37
That word compassion means:
I.to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)
This is not brotherly love, certainly not redemptive Love but more of a civil affection for our fellow creature, we are not without natural affection as stated here 2 Tim 33:3
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
That word natural affection actually means unloving, naturally !
So your jailor keeps thousands of prisoners caged while they await their inevitable sentence of being incinerated.
:nono: If they are born without mouths, it is themselves that have done it. Man was no created with this sin disorder to ignore God and live autonomously.The trick is that he has not given them mouths.
I am a Christian, I fellowship at a Reformed Baptist church and I embrace the Doctrines of Grace...all 5 points.
I am more than willing to dialogue with people whose doctrine differs from my own and be civil and kind to them
Finding people here willing to dialogue with you, regarding T-U-L-I-P and the five solas, in a civil manner maybe too much to ask for.
The doctrines of Grace precede TULIP. nor do the doctrines of Grace depend upon it.