Theology Club: Calvinism: Total Depravity and the Righteousness of God

Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Today one of the chief spokesmen for the Reformed view is Dr. R.C. Sproul and he says the following:

"From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?[Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).​

Sproul says that the people not chosen for salvation are left "to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell."

According to Calvinism all me are made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind when they do the very things which He desgined them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil:" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Here is one of the verses which the Calvinists misinterpret in order to support their false teaching in regard to Original Sin:

"They that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Ro.8:8).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes:

"This verse is used to support the dogma that, because of the Fall, man's nature is so utterly depraved that he is incapable of leading a moral and upright life. As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).​

The Calvinists are so blind that they cannot see that their teaching is a direct frontal assult on God's righteousness!
 
Saved.One.by.Grace

Saved.One.by.Grace

New member
Really, another thread spreading lies and discord among Bible believing Christians? You are truly a one-trick-pony. I'm not even going to take you off ignore to sneak a peak at what you're saying now.
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Today one of the chief spokesmen for the Reformed view is Dr. R.C. Sproul and he says the following:

"From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?[Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).​

Sproul says that the people not chosen for salvation are left "to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell."

According to Calvinism all me are made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind when they do the very things which He desgined them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil:" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Here is one of the verses which the Calvinists misinterpret in order to support their false teaching in regard to Original Sin:

"They that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Ro.8:8).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes:

"This verse is used to support the dogma that, because of the Fall, man's nature is so utterly depraved that he is incapable of leading a moral and upright life. As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).​

The Calvinists are so blind that they cannot see that their teaching is a direct frontal assult on God's righteousness!
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Hi , and how do Calvinist handle 1 Tim 2:4 ?

Why preach and teach ?

Do , Calvinist believe in the Millennium ??

dan p
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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DAN P said:
Hi , and how do Calvinist handle 1 Tim 2:4 ?
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Quite well, thank you. ;)

Go deeper here.

Why preach and teach ?
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It is commanded by God as the ordinary means by which the redemptive ends of God are achieved.

Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

You can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke you. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering any misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.

Do , Calvinist believe in the Millennium ??
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Yes.

AMR
 
Saved.One.by.Grace

Saved.One.by.Grace

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Quite well, thank you. ;)

Go deeper here.

It is commanded by God as the ordinary means by which the redemptive ends of God are achieved.

Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

You can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke you. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering any misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.

Yes.

AMR
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I don't know why Dan would think a Calvinist would have trouble with biblical teaching. :confused:
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Calvinism is a bane to Christianity and is the single most hindrance to the furtherance of the Church of Jesus Christ. People who embrace it are the reason for the many "self-help" and "Christian psychology" books loading down the shelves of Christian book stores everywhere. If this weren't true, every Christian would moving on in the afterwards of their salvation seeking God and speaking and learning about Jesus' mission and what the good news He carried with Him is really all about instead debating the issues surrounding "TULIP" and be continually re-dedicating his life for re-assurances of his salvation ___ every meeting time.

Now, say it isn't so.

Why not answer the question, "what was His mission"? "What did He really come to do"?
 
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Saved.One.by.Grace

Saved.One.by.Grace

New member
Cross Reference said:
Calvinism is a bane to Christianity and is the single most hindrance to the furtherance of the Church of Jesus Christ. People who embrace it are the reason for the many "self-help" and "Christian psychology" books loading down the shelves of Christian book stores everywhere. If this weren't true, every Christian would moving on in the afterwards of their salvation seeking God and speaking and learning about Jesus' mission and what the good news He carried with Him is really all about instead debating the issues surrounding "TULIP" and be continually re-dedicating his life for re-assurances of his salvation ___ every meeting time.

Now, say it isn't so.

Why not answer the question, "what was His mission"? "What did He really come to do"?
Click to expand...

You speak from ignorance, not truth. Calvinism is the bible, sola scriptura, nothing more.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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Cross Reference said:
If this weren't true, every Christian would moving on
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"Every Christian would [be] moving on..."

Every Christian? Wow! I had not realized just how large the monergistic community of saints had become. :AMR:

The bulk of your post was nothing but hyperbole and cannot possibly be substantiated. Go ahead and try to do so. :AMR1:

AMR
 
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blackbirdking

New member
Saved.One.by.Grace said:
You speak from ignorance, not truth. Calvinism is the bible, sola scriptura, nothing more.
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Men don't get saved by hearing the doctrine of John Calvin; they get saved by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that John Calvin did not teach that God ordained sin?

And that John Calvin did not teach that God only ordained some of mankind to eternal life?

And that John Calvin did not teach that the remainder of mankind went to hell; and that was ordained by God also?

And that John Calvin did not teach that Deception was ordained by God?
 
B

blackbirdking

New member
Saved.One.by.Grace said:
Yes.
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Saved.One.by.Grace said:
Calvinism is the Bible.

The Bible teaches Calvinism.

God is good.

God causes sin. Error. God does not cause sin.
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http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_sin.html:

Calvin writes: “Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Bk. 1, Ch. 16, Sect. 3, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “First, it must be observed that the will of God is the cause of all things that happen in the world; and yet God is not the author of evil.”(Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)


Seems like Calvin had trouble admitting it too.


Apparently you don't even know what John Calvin wrote.

No; you really do know, and are afraid/ashamed to admit that you know.
 
Saved.One.by.Grace

Saved.One.by.Grace

New member
blackbirdking said:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_sin.html:

Calvin writes: “Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Bk. 1, Ch. 16, Sect. 3, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “First, it must be observed that the will of God is the cause of all things that happen in the world; and yet God is not the author of evil.”(Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)


Seems like Calvin had trouble admitting it too.


Apparently you don't even know what John Calvin wrote.

No; you really do know, and are afraid/ashamed to admit that you know.
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Calvinism is not what John Calvin wrote. He may have given the movement its start, but it goes beyond one fallible man now. But it still bears his name. You really are a person worthy of ignoring, which is what I will do. Buh bye.
 
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