Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

intojoy

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So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?



There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.


And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening;
(General draw)


and the Lord opened her heart
(Effectual draw)


to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:13, 14 NASB)
 

journey

New member
So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?

There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

I think that intojoy was thinking about the portion of Scripture below:

John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

intojoy

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I think that intojoy was thinking about the portion of Scripture below:

John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


He knows it. Jerry has some issues....

My main prob with him is he is into open theism. I think.
 

intojoy

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I'm an Open-Theist and I don't have any problems! At least none that the good Lord isn't aware of and taking care of.


Once God foreknows something it has to come to pass otherwise God was wrong about what He foreknew.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
and the Lord opened her heart
(Effectual draw)

to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:13, 14 NASB)

It is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit which opens the heart. Every man who hears the gospel will have their hearts opened if they do not resist the Holy Spirit:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:31).​

According to your idea only those who receive a so-called effectual calling can be saved. But here we see that even them who are persishing and do not believe could have believed ifnot for the fact that their minds were blinded to the light of the gospel:

" And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

These unbelievers obviously did not receive a so-called effectual calling but they did receive one which was capable of saving them.
 

intojoy

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It is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit which opens the heart. Every man who hears the gospel will have their hearts opened if they do not resist the Holy Spirit:



"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:31).​



According to your idea only those who receive a so-called effectual calling can be saved. But here we see that even them who are persishing and do not believe could have believed ifnot for the fact that their minds were blinded to the light of the gospel:



" And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​



These unbelievers obviously did not receive a so-called effectual calling but they did receive one which was capable of saving them.


Yep they got a genuine offer of salvation even tho their total depravity keeps them
From believing . My observation
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yep they got a genuine offer of salvation even tho their total depravity keeps them
From believing . My observation

That is not what Paul says. He says that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel so they wouldn't see its light.

That means that they had the ability to see it or otherwise it would be impossible to blind their minds to it.

That is because a person must first be able to see before they can be blinded.
 

intojoy

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That is not what Paul says. He says that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel so they wouldn't see its light.



That means that they had the ability to see it or otherwise it would be impossible to blind their minds to it.



That is because a person must first be able to see before they can be blinded.


I don't think that's right. I think if God foreknew who would be saved then they will be saved otherwise God was wrong about what He foreknew.

God knew Adam would fall.
 

intojoy

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So when are you coming out to Hawaii jerry?

Fruchtenbaum will be here from December thru February

It would be great to meet you and the mrs. Plus you could plant your seed faith offering to me for all of the good teaching I'm giving out . Just like Taughty says we r supposed to.

But seriously if you can come, I'll treat you to a luau brother.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No I'm sayin' that you're sayin' that God didn't foreknow who would believe.

The passage which I quoted proves that even those who are perishing could have believed the gospel if not for the fact that their minds were blinded to its truth by the god of this world.

Do you think Paul was wrong about that?

In answer to your point I will quote John Wesley, and his points are shared by most of the Calvinists:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

Fruchtenbaum will be here from December thru February

What a perfect time for a little debate on TOL concerning the beginning of the present dispensation and the beginning of the Body of Christ.

But I doubt Arnold will be up to the challenge because he lacks the kind of confidence needed for such a debate.
 

intojoy

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The passage which I quoted proves that even those who are perishing could have believed the gospel if not for the fact that their minds were blinded to its truth by the god of this world.



Do you think Paul was wrong about that?



In answer to your point I will quote John Wesley, and his points are shared by most of the Calvinists:



"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​







What a perfect time for a little debate on TOL concerning the beginning of the present dispensation and the beginning of the Body of Christ.



But I doubt Arnold will be up to the challenge because he lacks the kind of confidence needed for such a debate.


When pride comes, then comes dishonor, But with the humble is wisdom. (Proverbs 11:2 NASB)
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
When pride comes, then comes dishonor, But with the humble is wisdom. (Proverbs 11:2 NASB)

After speaking with a person who knows Arnold he is anything but humble.

He will refuse to debate me because he knows that I will defeat him soundly and his pride cannot take that.
 
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