Theology Club: How Omniscient is God?

God is not outside of time. Such a notion should be put to rest if believing what He said mattered.

Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

He dwells in the present, not the past, not the future. He is ever-present here and now. He remembers things, a situation that requires realtime existence. It is a preposterous idea that God does not exist in time, when He is continually here, moment to moment.

It is insanity to believe He exists "somewhere" other than here and now.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created ...

Beginning means here the very beginning of or start of creative activity. God then had to exist before time since zero indicates the start of creation and God already was. He is the I am as the bible refers to Him. Study the Jewish tenses of the words and you'll see I'm correct.
 

Lighthouse

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Time is a created dimension so it would be impossible for God to create something that would limit His ability. The premise that time is an attribute of God is nonsense.
Would you care to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that time is a created dimension?

And no one said anything about God limiting His ability. But are you making the argument that it is impossible for God to impose limits upon Himself?

Only someone with a limited understanding Big Bang physics and the unfolding of the eleven dimensions would think of "before time" as an oxymoron. That doesn't mean that someone is incapable of a deeper understanding, but maybe they just haven't tried or found the necessary resources.
Do you really not understand the meaning of the word "before"?
 
Would you care to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that time is a created dimension?

And no one said anything about God limiting His ability. But are you making the argument that it is impossible for God to impose limits upon Himself?

Do you really not understand the meaning of the word "before"?

I'm unable to provide enough evidence for you in the limited spaces provided on this forum. I instead suggest you read books by Christian Pastor and Astronomer Dr. Hugh Ross for a complete understanding of the physics going beyond our 4 dimensions we currently occupy. He also has DVD's which may help you if you still can't understand the concepts. You're obviously not a scientist so I fully understand how you come by your error. If you believe God is in time, you believe God is not timeless and has a beginning. I do not believe God is bound by something He created.
 

Lighthouse

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I'm unable to provide enough evidence for you in the limited spaces provided on this forum. I instead suggest you read books by Christian Pastor and Astronomer Dr. Hugh Ross for a complete understanding of the physics going beyond our 4 dimensions we currently occupy. He also has DVD's which may help you if you still can't understand the concepts. You're obviously not a scientist so I fully understand how you come by your error. If you believe God is in time, you believe God is not timeless and has a beginning. I do not believe God is bound by something He created.
If you can't give a simple explanation proving time to be created then you're a waste of time.

And operating within time does not preclude God from being eternal and having no beginning. Of course, God clearly states that He is the beginning, and the end.

What do you think He means by that?

And i fully understand how time works as a dimension theoretically and conceptually. The issue is that it isn't one physically, and anyone who argues otherwise can't prove their argument true.

If they think they can I'd like to see them try.
 

Desert Reign

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If you can't give a simple explanation proving time to be created then you're a waste of time.

That's exactly right. He's the one who doesn't understand it.

And I see that none of these closed viewers have even attempted to answer my original question. Shows how shallow their thinking really is. All this talk of omniscience and wotnot is just sound bites.
 

Lighthouse

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That's exactly right. He's the one who doesn't understand it.

And I see that none of these closed viewers have even attempted to answer my original question. Shows how shallow their thinking really is. All this talk of omniscience and wotnot is just sound bites.
Yup.
 

COLA76

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Thank you. I am glad you agree that God being outside of time is problematical. Personally, I woud say that it is even ridiculous. But what about my original question? What is knowledge, how does it come about, what is its purpose, how is it framed?

Any ideas?

So that we are on the same page, let me first say that I have an open view. My responses to your were simply an effort to be more precise about the contrary view.

Knowledge is acquired/formed information.

One can gain knowledge through empirical/experiential observation or through rational constructs.

In what sense do you suppose knowledge has a purpose? Knowledge, per se, has function, though I would not suggest it has purpose/telos. Knowledge is a necessary element of a functioning mind. Without knowledge there is no decision making, only instinct. Knowledge is an element of cause as well as an element of anticipation and prediction.

Knowledge is formed/acquired, in one way or another, by an individual mind. That being the case, knowledge is formed/acquired within a particular context. One's context can limit or further one's knowledge in the sense that ability, opportunity, or quantity of information may or may not be available.

There is still the question of the relationship between existence and knowledge. Does the term "knowledge" only apply to existing or existed events/things? Most that have an open view acknowledge that knowledge of potentials is possible. In fact, the human mind is capable of knowing potentials, some in great detail. God, then, ought to know potentials in the most detail possible. The question becomes what is the nature of the difference between detailed knowledge of the potentiality and the knowledge of the actualized potentiality?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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He is sovereign and knows all He needs to know to perform His unbending will.
Yes, He is sovereign and "all he needs to know" is, what has happened, is happening, and will happen. All according to His plan, of course. :AMR:

AMR
 

Desert Reign

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So that we are on the same page, let me first say that I have an open view. My responses to your were simply an effort to be more precise about the contrary view.

Thanks. I did surmise that eventually.

Knowledge is acquired/formed information.
OK. Let's say that books are found in a library, atomic fuel is housed in a reactor, cars are stored in a garage, water is held in a tank. What is knowledge/information stored in, what form does it have? I am looking for a very practical answer rather than a philosophical one.

One can gain knowledge through empirical/experiential observation or through rational constructs.
This sounds like you feel that knowledge is something objective out there and you can go and grab a handful of it and stick it in your memory somewhere. I don't quite know though. Does that sound like what you believe?

In what sense do you suppose knowledge has a purpose? Knowledge, per se, has function, though I would not suggest it has purpose/telos. Knowledge is a necessary element of a functioning mind. Without knowledge there is no decision making, only instinct. Knowledge is an element of cause as well as an element of anticipation and prediction.
In my opinion, knowledge is something that must be capable of being shared, communicated; and it must be in a form that permits this even if it is not actually shared with others.

Knowledge is formed/acquired, in one way or another, by an individual mind. That being the case, knowledge is formed/acquired within a particular context. One's context can limit or further one's knowledge in the sense that ability, opportunity, or quantity of information may or may not be available.
So what do you think is the difference, if any, between some particular context and the knowledge of that context?

There is still the question of the relationship between existence and knowledge. Does the term "knowledge" only apply to existing or existed events/things? Most that have an open view acknowledge that knowledge of potentials is possible. In fact, the human mind is capable of knowing potentials, some in great detail. God, then, ought to know potentials in the most detail possible. The question becomes what is the nature of the difference between detailed knowledge of the potentiality and the knowledge of the actualized potentiality?
I don't. Except that if you think of a possibility, then the thought is itself real, even if the possibility is not real. In my view, in an open world, an open universe, the course of the universe as a whole is fundamentally and absolutely unpredictable. You can imagine possibilities for its future and you can even imagine very realistic possibilities in limited contexts, but as a whole you cannot imagine every possibility. That is what I mean when I use the words 'open', 'openness' etc.

And I am including God in this. Make no mistake. God, as creator of the physical universe, is still open to his own future, otherwise he would not be alive. We ought to distinguish between the real universe and the physical universe. The physical universe is part of the real universe. The real universe is simply the sum total of all that is real, including God. So when I say that the universe is open and hence absolutely unpredictable, I mean the real universe. But this is going a bit far. First we ought to understand we mean by 'knowledge' itself.
 

fivesense

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We "existed" ten minutes ago, but we no longer are "there". We are in the present, the now. And all that was, and all that will become of us does not "exist". The past "us" no longer exists, and the future "us"has not yet "lived".

God does not exist outside the present. He is here, now, always was in the past, and always will exist in the future, the Ever-Present God.

The name Ieue conveys the idea of One Who will be (I...) in the future, and being (.eu.) at present, and was (...e) in the past.

He does not live in the past, does not dwell in the future, His abode is here, now, in the celestial realm, surrounded in deep darkeness (2Sa 22:12).

In Him we live, and move, and have our being. A Deity whose existence is elsewhere than the present could not provide these conditions. If He were not present here and now, we would not be living, moving, and being.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Is is necessary that He knows that which is irrelevant to His plan?
Such a statement assumes facts not in evidence. Given our own faculties of reason it is easy to deduce that there are no meaningless events or events lacking contingencies. That, coupled with clear teaching of Scripture of God's providential care of even the brute animals, means that there are no irrelevancies within God's sovereign rule over His creation. Indeed, even the spin of the atom would cease if God were to cease to be ever mindful of it.

AMR
 
If you can't give a simple explanation proving time to be created then you're a waste of time.

And operating within time does not preclude God from being eternal and having no beginning. Of course, God clearly states that He is the beginning, and the end.

What do you think He means by that?

And i fully understand how time works as a dimension theoretically and conceptually. The issue is that it isn't one physically, and anyone who argues otherwise can't prove their argument true.

If they think they can I'd like to see them try.

Sorry, I can't dumb it down for you.

- Ignore -
 

Lighthouse

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Such a statement assumes facts not in evidence.
Such as?

Given our own faculties of reason it is easy to deduce that there are no meaningless events or events lacking contingencies.
Evidence?

That, coupled with clear teaching of Scripture of God's providential care of even the brute animals, means that there are no irrelevancies within God's sovereign rule over His creation.
Specific passages?

Indeed, even the spin of the atom would cease if God were to cease to be ever mindful of it.
Proof?

It's sad that you can't even discuss this theoretically for the sake of argument. Your inability to do so says so much about you.

Sorry, I can't dumb it down for you.

- Ignore -
I didn't ask for you to dumb it down, coward.
 

COLA76

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OK. Let's say that books are found in a library, atomic fuel is housed in a reactor, cars are stored in a garage, water is held in a tank. What is knowledge/information stored in, what form does it have? I am looking for a very practical answer rather than a philosophical one.

I would have to say knowledge is stored in a mind.

This sounds like you feel that knowledge is something objective out there and you can go and grab a handful of it and stick it in your memory somewhere. I don't quite know though. Does that sound like what you believe?

In my opinion, knowledge is something that must be capable of being shared, communicated; and it must be in a form that permits this even if it is not actually shared with others.

No, I would say that information is objective and something that can be gathered. Knowledge is the possession of information. I suppose I would say knowledge is, in essence, an activity rather than a thing per se. In that sense, knowledge is not shared, but information is shared. Information is shared in many forms, but the nature of information per se is an active topic, and not a question I have a definite answer for.

So what do you think is the difference, if any, between some particular context and the knowledge of that context?

With the understanding of knowledge as an activity, context is external to knowledge, or more precisely, the mind doing the knowing. Just as the beach or the track drastically affect the action of running. The context in which knowing occurs and the information available affects the knowing.

I don't. Except that if you think of a possibility, then the thought is itself real, even if the possibility is not real. In my view, in an open world, an open universe, the course of the universe as a whole is fundamentally and absolutely unpredictable. You can imagine possibilities for its future and you can even imagine very realistic possibilities in limited contexts, but as a whole you cannot imagine every possibility. That is what I mean when I use the words 'open', 'openness' etc.

And I am including God in this. Make no mistake. God, as creator of the physical universe, is still open to his own future, otherwise he would not be alive. We ought to distinguish between the real universe and the physical universe. The physical universe is part of the real universe. The real universe is simply the sum total of all that is real, including God. So when I say that the universe is open and hence absolutely unpredictable, I mean the real universe. But this is going a bit far. First we ought to understand we mean by 'knowledge' itself.

I appreciate the point that God must be open to his own future. I am interested in the reasoning behind your statement that every possibility cannot be imagined in an open reality.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Such as?


Evidence?


Specific passages?


Proof
Your attempts to be coy grow weary. You get what I am saying, yet you want to hide behind vacuous :idunno: as a ploy to avoid the obviousness of my comments.

You may rest comfortable thinking you have settled the matter, but all you have done is exhibit your unwillingness to consider the truth. Trust me, the discerning are not fooled by your nonsense.

Anytime you would like to join me in a One-on-One to discuss the matter in a proper manner, wherein you cannot hide behind these sort of :idunno: tactics, let me know. I will be happy to correct your misconceptions if you are open to correction. If you are not, at least others would be edified at your expense. Just sayin'.

Now you have been challenged. Are you able to meet the challenge head on or do you prefer to just play these silly games? :idunno: :readthis:

AMR
 

Lighthouse

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Your attempts to be coy grow weary. You get what I am saying, yet you want to hide behind vacuous :idunno: as a ploy to avoid the obviousness of my comments.
At what point did I imply that I didn't get what you were saying?

I asked you for Scripture to support your positions.

You may rest comfortable thinking you have settled the matter, but all you have done is exhibit your unwillingness to consider the truth. Trust me, the discerning are not fooled by your nonsense.
Why must all of you forget that I used to agree with you on this subject?

Well, to a point.

I spent 20 years believing God was outside of time and knew all of time from beginning to end eternally. The reason I changed my mind was Scripture; not only that which supports the idea that time is not a dimension and therefore God is not outside of it [and all that leads to] but the lack of any Scripture supporting what I used to believe.

The fact that you are unwilling to provide Scripture to support the things you claim speaks volumes.

Anytime you would like to join me in a One-on-One to discuss the matter in a proper manner, wherein you cannot hide behind these sort of :idunno: tactics, let me know. I will be happy to correct your misconceptions if you are open to correction. If you are not, at least others would be edified at your expense. Just sayin'.
I'm not hiding behind anything. I asked you for Scripture and you are unable to provide it.

So, what are you hiding?

Now you have been challenged. Are you able to meet the challenge head on or do you prefer to just play these silly games? :idunno: :readthis:
What challenge? If there was a challenge in there it was weak.
 

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Good gravy, two can play at this, LH.

Where is your Scripture proofs to support your notion that there are irrelevant events in God's eyes?

Are the number of the hairs on your head irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is the cast of the dice irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is a $0.01 bird falling to the earth irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is providing the raven its prey irrelevant to God? :AMR:


AMR
 

Lighthouse

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Good gravy, two can play at this, LH.

Where is your Scripture proofs to support your notion that there are irrelevant events in God's eyes?

Are the number of the hairs on your head irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is the cast of the dice irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is a $0.01 bird falling to the earth irrelevant to God? :AMR:
Is providing the raven its prey irrelevant to God? :AMR:


AMR
This is your response? I asked you for Scripture and all you can do is redirect?

And then ask a question specific to passages that show God cares about His creation. And oblivious to the fact that they regarding things present, thus God is not required to know details of that which is yet to come in order to know these things. The number of the hairs on our heads are important to God because we are important to God. He cares about us.

And the bird cost [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]½ a copper coin, according to Matthew and two-fifths of a coin according to Luke. I guess it depends on the bird.

But it is an argument from silence to say that it makes a difference to God how the lots are cast when not specifically tied to His will [1 Samuel 10:20-24, 1 Samuel 16:7-12, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Acts 1:26[/FONT]]. Or that what I will eat for breakfast in five days time affects His plans.

And yes, He provides for His creation, when necessary, because He cares about it.

All of these require Him to be present and attentive in the here an now; to be actively involved in the immediate. And that is what Psalm 46:1 tells us: [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]“[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.”[/FONT][/FONT]

We also know that circumcision now no longer matters to God; whether or not one is. According to 1 Corinthians 7:19.
[/FONT]
 
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