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How Omniscient is God?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Chairistotle has answered exactly. 'Presumably' was an invitation for the original poster to confirm or deny. Why don't you have a go yourself? However, before you do, consider that the original poster actually agreed with me (if you read on), that the idea that God was not in time was problematical. And he didn't need to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about either.

    'Your faith has made you well.' - Jesus.
    When the word presume was inserted in what could have been a logical argument, or at least it appeared so, the whole argument fell apart. God in or out of time is not problematical, which is another error in logic. Start with a statement of fact we can agree on. Start with every cause has an effect, or every effect has a cause. When you get down to the subatomic level, there are effects which appear random. But are they really? Isn't our intellect falling short and one day subatomic physics will find a cause for this effect? If we concentrate on causal relations we can see, working backwards, we see God as the prime mover. We see the beginning of the universe. God spoke and it was, the Big Bang.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
      I believe God doesn't need to know the entirety of the future to avoid such things. He is sovereign and knows all He needs to know to perform His unbending will.
      I don't believe that that answers the question. I think it can be answered with a plain yes or no.
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
        When the word presume was inserted in what could have been a logical argument, or at least it appeared so, the whole argument fell apart. God in or out of time is not problematical, which is another error in logic. Start with a statement of fact we can agree on. Start with every cause has an effect, or every effect has a cause. When you get down to the subatomic level, there are effects which appear random. But are they really? Isn't our intellect falling short and one day subatomic physics will find a cause for this effect? If we concentrate on causal relations we can see, working backwards, we see God as the prime mover. We see the beginning of the universe. God spoke and it was, the Big Bang.
        Next time, try listening. I hope you find someone else to talk to.
        Total Misanthropy.
        Uncertain salvation.
        Luck of the draw.
        Irresistible damnation.
        Persecution of the saints.

        Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
        (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

        RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
        Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
        Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
          The argument assumes God is bound by the dimension He created, viz. the 4th dimension. Since God is outside of time, the whole argument and yours crumbles into meaningless drivel.
          No, you are assuming time was created.

          And you have no Scripture to back up the idea it was created, nor that God is outside of it.

          Time is an attribute of existence, and since God exists time exists as a result.

          Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
          I don't believe that that answers the question. I think it can be answered with a plain yes or no.
          God makes it clear He does not know that which has not yet happened, outside of His definite plans.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
            The argument assumes God is bound by the dimension He created, viz. the 4th dimension. Since God is outside of time, the whole argument and yours crumbles into meaningless drivel.
            1) It's not my argument. You are not reading very carefully.

            2) Until one can define what it means to be "outside of time" then the proposition is meaningless. Good argumentation would show what it means for God to be "outside of time" and exactly how that relates to the earlier arguments.

            3) Your use of the term "meaningless drivel" is designed to cause an emotional response. A good debater only uses sarcasm to highlight a portion of an argument that clearly ought to resound with its target. Your use of it here leaves me scratching my head mostly because of point 1. Does being obnoxious make you feel better or some such?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
              When the word presume was inserted in what could have been a logical argument, or at least it appeared so, the whole argument fell apart.
              No. It Didn't. I was able, quite apart from the word "presume" to see clearly what the meat of the argument was.

              God in or out of time is not problematical, which is another error in logic.
              Both propositions are meaningless until defined.

              Start with a statement of fact we can agree on. Start with every cause has an effect, or every effect has a cause. When you get down to the subatomic level, there are effects which appear random. But are they really? Isn't our intellect falling short and one day subatomic physics will find a cause for this effect? If we concentrate on causal relations we can see, working backwards, we see God as the prime mover. We see the beginning of the universe. God spoke and it was, the Big Bang.
              If God is the Prime Mover, as Aquinas building off Aristotle argued, then he is not the God of the Bible. They are, by definition, not the same entity. But this is entirely outside the scope of the argument and nowhere near the question being asked and answered. There is a thread already devoted to the Cosmological argument, the Kalam version of it anyway.
              Last edited by chairistotle; November 21, 2013, 07:14 AM. Reason: fixed color tags

              Comment


              • #37
                Genesis 1:1, in the beginning, indicates that there was a beginning, and that God already existed. You can also look at God's name, I am, which leads you to the same conclusion.

                Posted from the TOL App!
                Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
                Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
                Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
                  Genesis 1:1, in the beginning, indicates that there was a beginning, and that God already existed. You can also look at God's name, I am, which leads you to the same conclusion.
                  No one is arguing that there was not a beginning. The issue here is whether or not time was an attribute of God's existence before the beginning of creation.

                  "Before time" is an oxymoron.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                    No one is arguing that there was not a beginning. The issue here is whether or not time was an attribute of God's existence before the beginning of creation.
                    Time is a created dimension so it would be impossible for God to create something that would limit His ability. The premise that time is an attribute of God is nonsense.

                    Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                    "Before time" is an oxymoron.
                    Only someone with a limited understanding Big Bang physics and the unfolding of the eleven dimensions would think of "before time" as an oxymoron. That doesn't mean that someone is incapable of a deeper understanding, but maybe they just haven't tried or found the necessary resources.
                    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
                    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
                    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
                      The argument assumes God is bound by the dimension He created, viz. the 4th dimension. Since God is outside of time, the whole argument and yours crumbles into meaningless drivel.
                      God is not outside of time. Such a notion should be put to rest if believing what He said mattered.

                      Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

                      He dwells in the present, not the past, not the future. He is ever-present here and now. He remembers things, a situation that requires realtime existence. It is a preposterous idea that God does not exist in time, when He is continually here, moment to moment.

                      It is insanity to believe He exists "somewhere" other than here and now.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by fivesense View Post
                        God is not outside of time. Such a notion should be put to rest if believing what He said mattered.

                        Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

                        He dwells in the present, not the past, not the future. He is ever-present here and now. He remembers things, a situation that requires realtime existence. It is a preposterous idea that God does not exist in time, when He is continually here, moment to moment.

                        It is insanity to believe He exists "somewhere" other than here and now.
                        Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created ...

                        Beginning means here the very beginning of or start of creative activity. God then had to exist before time since zero indicates the start of creation and God already was. He is the I am as the bible refers to Him. Study the Jewish tenses of the words and you'll see I'm correct.
                        Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
                        Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
                        Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
                          Time is a created dimension so it would be impossible for God to create something that would limit His ability. The premise that time is an attribute of God is nonsense.
                          Would you care to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that time is a created dimension?

                          And no one said anything about God limiting His ability. But are you making the argument that it is impossible for God to impose limits upon Himself?

                          Only someone with a limited understanding Big Bang physics and the unfolding of the eleven dimensions would think of "before time" as an oxymoron. That doesn't mean that someone is incapable of a deeper understanding, but maybe they just haven't tried or found the necessary resources.
                          Do you really not understand the meaning of the word "before"?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            Would you care to demonstrate how you came to the conclusion that time is a created dimension?

                            And no one said anything about God limiting His ability. But are you making the argument that it is impossible for God to impose limits upon Himself?

                            Do you really not understand the meaning of the word "before"?
                            I'm unable to provide enough evidence for you in the limited spaces provided on this forum. I instead suggest you read books by Christian Pastor and Astronomer Dr. Hugh Ross for a complete understanding of the physics going beyond our 4 dimensions we currently occupy. He also has DVD's which may help you if you still can't understand the concepts. You're obviously not a scientist so I fully understand how you come by your error. If you believe God is in time, you believe God is not timeless and has a beginning. I do not believe God is bound by something He created.
                            Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
                            Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
                            Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
                              I'm unable to provide enough evidence for you in the limited spaces provided on this forum. I instead suggest you read books by Christian Pastor and Astronomer Dr. Hugh Ross for a complete understanding of the physics going beyond our 4 dimensions we currently occupy. He also has DVD's which may help you if you still can't understand the concepts. You're obviously not a scientist so I fully understand how you come by your error. If you believe God is in time, you believe God is not timeless and has a beginning. I do not believe God is bound by something He created.
                              If you can't give a simple explanation proving time to be created then you're a waste of time.

                              And operating within time does not preclude God from being eternal and having no beginning. Of course, God clearly states that He is the beginning, and the end.

                              What do you think He means by that?

                              And i fully understand how time works as a dimension theoretically and conceptually. The issue is that it isn't one physically, and anyone who argues otherwise can't prove their argument true.

                              If they think they can I'd like to see them try.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                                If you can't give a simple explanation proving time to be created then you're a waste of time.
                                That's exactly right. He's the one who doesn't understand it.

                                And I see that none of these closed viewers have even attempted to answer my original question. Shows how shallow their thinking really is. All this talk of omniscience and wotnot is just sound bites.
                                Total Misanthropy.
                                Uncertain salvation.
                                Luck of the draw.
                                Irresistible damnation.
                                Persecution of the saints.

                                Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
                                (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

                                RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
                                Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
                                Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

                                Comment

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