I'm surprised that you are willing to take this portion of Yeshua's ministry and limit it to your doctrine.
You really have so much missing that is only seen from the Jewish perspective.
Theology Club: Total Depravity
- Thread starter Saved.One.by.Grace
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I'm surprised that you are willing to take this portion of Yeshua's ministry and limit it to your doctrine.
You really have so much missing that is only seen from the Jewish perspective.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I am not limiting it in any way.
Well then, from a Jewish perspective answer my question:
If the Lord Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that if he did keep the law perfectly then he would inherit eternal life then He must have been telling him something else.
What is that something else?
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
So you're saying that however long Adam was on the earth before he sinned, he was still going to die, physically. This is a theological position many evolutionists would agree with you on. So you're saying God always intended for things to die. Your theology is so mixed up it's hard to know where to start correcting you, or if it is even worth the effort.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, that is not what I am saying. If he would have not sinned then he would continue to have access to the tree of life and would have continued to live physically.
And that is exactly what the Lord was referring to here:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
You build yourself a little straw man, one which is not based on anything which I said, and then you say that I am mixed up. Surely you can do better than this.
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
So you're now saying Adam had to have a continuing supply of the tree of life, sort of like a fix, in order to keep on living. Where in the Bible do you see Adam partaking of the tree of life even once?
That he built his house on the sand of pharisaical Judaism that taught if he was rich, it meant God favored him. If he was very wealthy then God really favored him. He went away unsaved and very disturbed because he had many great possessions.
Notice that Yeshua does not correct him?
Does that mean that this man kept all of the commandments?
If you think this man kept all of the commandments, do you think he kept the righteous standard of the law as taught by Yeshua in Matthew 5?
Then why, will you ignore the fact that Yeshua is ignoring the man's error, the man's lie about keeping the law?
What Yeshua is teaching this man is not a foolish idea that he kept the law as he lied about nor is He teaching that it is possible for any man to keep the law - no one kept the law.
Yeshua is telling the man that the prosperity doctrine of mammon was a false teaching. That is why Yeshua tells him to sell all that he had and give it to the poor and follow him. That YRR thought he could follow Yeshua and keep his pharisaical Judaism at the same time and Yeshua denied him.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You did not give us your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus words here:
"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:28).
What are you say that the Lord's words "this do" are referring to?
And what are His words--"and thou shalt live"--referring to?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Since when did the words of the Lord Jesus mean "nothing"?
Of course they meant something and their meaning disproves the myth of original sin.
Your idea that Adam was the head of the human race was invented by Augustine and here is what is said about him:
" Augustine himself was deeply imbued with the heathen philosophies of his day. He first became a disciple of the Manichaeans. The Manichaeans were a Gnostic-Christians sect, with the Christian elements reduced to a minimum. They taught, among other things, that all matter is inherently evil. Because of this view, they also taught that Christ's bodily manifestations were only apparent, and that he did not actually come in the flesh. They denied the real incarnation of Christ, as well as his bodily resurrection, because of their view of the essentially evil nature of all matter. Augustine's nine years with them accustomed him to regard human nature as essentially evil and human freedom as a delusion.
"Augustine next fell under the influence of Neo-Platonism, and his theological views were strongly influenced by this philosophy as well. However, his doctrine of sin shows the obvious influence of the Gnostic teachings of Manichaeism, in which he assumes the most ridiculous teaching of all the heathen philosophies the teaching that matter can be sinful. And this is the source of his doctrine that sin can be passed on physically from one person to another."
"Augustine next fell under the influence of Neo-Platonism, and his theological views were strongly influenced by this philosophy as well. However, his doctrine of sin shows the obvious influence of the Gnostic teachings of Manichaeism, in which he assumes the most ridiculous teaching of all the heathen philosophies the teaching that matter can be sinful. And this is the source of his doctrine that sin can be passed on physically from one person to another."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have already asked and you have already declined to answer but perhaps this time you will answer my questions about the following verse:
"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:28).
What are you say that the Lord's words "this do" are referring to?
And what are His words--"and thou shalt live"--referring to?
Nothing.
Yeshua is not telling the YRR to do something that He thought the YRR could do to inherit eternal life. That's not what is happening here.
Why would Yeshua ask anyone to do something that Yeshua knows cannot be done?
Shuggart: you think Yeshua is asking the YRR to do the commandments because you have a preconceived philosophical prejudice that the law of Moses was within man's abilities to keep. Isn't that your belief ?
Here is what really is going on between the YRR and the Messiah.
Yeshua is using a Jewish form and style of teaching when a teacher begins with what is known and moves to the unknown.
The YRR is not some random guy coming to Yeshua, the YRR is a divine appointment coming to Yeshua as a first century Jew who was raised according to all of the tenants of first century pharisaical Judaism. The dialogue that takes place is part of the Messiah's teaching on the mammon of unrighteousness over and against the Pharisaic teachings concerning Jewish salvation that was based on works and the favor of Jehovah based on outward material wealth. The reaction of His disciples authenticates my interpretation of this passage. Their reaction devalues your observation of it.
This interaction between the YRR and Yeshua illustrates the failure of Pharisaic Judaism to learn from the law of Moses what it was intended to teach Israel, that they could not keep it and that they were in need of a savior. And that the outward appearance of wealth will have nothing whatsoever that would signify the blessing of Jehovah upon one's life.
Thus we read that the YRR came to test the Messiah. To test what? To test his own theology against that of Yeshua and His disciples doctrines that were turning the YRR's world upside down. And therefore we read Messiah's words in response to two things.
First, if salvation could be had as taught by Pharisaism - by the law:
"Keep the commandments"
And second, "go and sell all you have, give it away and follow me"
Jerry, you are quite out of the context of this very Jewish conversation taking place by two first century religious Jews don't you think?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You say that despite the fact that I believe that when the Lord jesus said the following that He meant what He said:
"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:28).
If it wasn't at least theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by keeping the law then the Lord Jesus would have told the rich young ruler something which was not true.
And then when I asked you to give your interpretation of what the Lord Jesus was saying there you refuse.
Therefore, the only conclusion which I can come to concerning your remarks on this verse is that you think the Lord Jesus said something which was not true.
And besides that, you had nothing to say about Paul's words about God's judgment of men in regard to their deeds or works:
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).
If a person continues in well doing then they will receive eternal life. If it wasn't possible, at least in theory, then Paul would have never written such a thing. The fact that he wrote that proves that men have the ability to obtain eternal life by their works.
If that is not what Paul is saying in those verses then those verses must have a different meaning.
Please give me your interpretation of their meaning.
In the story of the Rich Y oung Ruler, Y eshua instructed him concerning the true source of eternal life. This story is found in Matthew 19:16-22; Mark 10:17-31; and Luke 18:18-30. In the Mark account, chapter 10:17 we read: And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? As Jesus came to another town, suddenly a rich young ruler, meaning he was the ruler of a local synagogue, ran to Yeshua. His running shows a sense of urgency. He knelt before Jesus, showing a posture of respect, and addressed Him. The fact that this man was rich meant that, according to Pharisaism, he had eternal life. However, it is obvious that this wealthy young ruler did not feel satisfied with that teaching. Although he had been taught that the very presence of his wealth was evidence that he had eternal life, he did not feel that he really had it. He came to Yeshua and said, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Jesus responded to him by asking a question of His own in verse 18: And Jesus said unto him, Why call you me good? none is good save one, even God. Critics of the New Testament and those cults that teach that Yeshua was not God, will often turn to Mark 10:18 to show that Jesus never claimed to be God. However, they are missing the point of the passage. A common rabbinic title for God was “the Good One.” Jesus had been claiming to be the Messiah, the Son of God, thereby claiming to be intrinsically good.
Yeshua was asking the ruler a question. If the ruler had answered, “I am calling you good because you are God,” then he would have answered his own question, “How does one receive eternal life?” One receives eternal life by owning Jesus as God.
But the ruler did not answer the question of Yeshua, instead he remained silent. And because the ruler failed to answer the question, Jesus proceeded to turn the man to the Law, as verse 19 states: You know the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother. Since the man would not, at that point, own Yeshua as God, Jesus then turned him to the Mosaic Law and quoted some of the Ten Commandments. But Yeshua was selective as to which of these Ten Commandments he chose to quote. He quoted only those commandments which concerned a man's relationship to other men.
Concerning these commandments the ruler said in verse 20: And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. Insofar as the commandments which dealt with human relationships were concerned, the man said that he had kept those commandments very well.
But then, according to Matthew 19:20, he said, “... what lack I yet?”
He still felt there was something lacking. What was lacking was the other set of commandmentsæthe commandments that concerned a man's relationship to God.
So Mark 10:21 states: And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing you lack: go, sell whatsoever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. At this point, we come to the root of the problem of this rich young ruler. The reason he did not have eternal life was because he was unable to keep the commandments that controlled a man's relationship to God. The one thing that kept him from trusting God for his salvation was his wealth. Because he had been brought up to believe that wealth was a sign of divine favor, he was trusting his wealth rather than God. And because he was trusting his wealth rather than God, he failed to keep the commandments that controlled a man's relationship to God. Jesus said he had to remove the one thing that was a stumbling-block to him. That one thing, which was keeping him from trusting God, was his wealth.
The principle being taught here is not that every rich man must dispense of his wealth to be saved, this would mean that salvation is by works. The principle being taught here is that you must not trust your wealth as a sign of divine favor. If you are trusting your wealth as a sign of divine favoræif that is the object of your trustæthen that wealth must be disposed of so that you can learn to trust God, and God alone.
This was something the rich man could not do and walked away sadly, as verse 22 states: But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
Yeshua responded in verses 23-24: And Jesus looked round about, and said unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answers again, and said unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Again, Pharisaism taught that wealth was a sign of divine favor. Unfortunately, people who are following the teaching of positive confession are also teaching that wealth is a sign of divine favor. As a result, wealthy men trusted their riches as a sign of already having eternal life. The problem was not their wealth; the problem was their trust in that wealth, because trusting their wealth, as a sign of divine favor, kept them from trusting God.
Then in verse 25, Yeshua said: It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matthew and Mark both use the Greek word that means a “sewing
needle.” Luke, however, uses a different Greek word which means a “surgeon's needle,” reflecting his own medical background. But all the Gospels point out that the disciples were astonished at what Jesus said, because it went contrary to the common teachings of that day.
In Matthew's account, chapter 19:25 points out: And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved? The disciples said, “If the rich can not make it, what chance do we have?”
But Yeshua responded in verse 26: And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. What may be impossible with men and what may be the teachings of men are not necessarily the teachings of Yeshua the Messiah, the teachings of God the Father, or the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua pointed out that God could save in any situation whether a man is poor or rich, because that which will save any man is trusting the Lord Jesus the Messiah for their salvation. To trust the Messiah for salvation is to personally believe that Jesus died for our sins; that He was buried; and that He rose again on the third day. If we believe this and accept it, whether we are rich or poor, this is how we have eternal life.
Jesus responded to him by asking a question of His own in verse 18: And Jesus said unto him, Why call you me good? none is good save one, even God. Critics of the New Testament and those cults that teach that Yeshua was not God, will often turn to Mark 10:18 to show that Jesus never claimed to be God. However, they are missing the point of the passage. A common rabbinic title for God was “the Good One.” Jesus had been claiming to be the Messiah, the Son of God, thereby claiming to be intrinsically good.
Yeshua was asking the ruler a question. If the ruler had answered, “I am calling you good because you are God,” then he would have answered his own question, “How does one receive eternal life?” One receives eternal life by owning Jesus as God.
But the ruler did not answer the question of Yeshua, instead he remained silent. And because the ruler failed to answer the question, Jesus proceeded to turn the man to the Law, as verse 19 states: You know the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother. Since the man would not, at that point, own Yeshua as God, Jesus then turned him to the Mosaic Law and quoted some of the Ten Commandments. But Yeshua was selective as to which of these Ten Commandments he chose to quote. He quoted only those commandments which concerned a man's relationship to other men.
Concerning these commandments the ruler said in verse 20: And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. Insofar as the commandments which dealt with human relationships were concerned, the man said that he had kept those commandments very well.
But then, according to Matthew 19:20, he said, “... what lack I yet?”
He still felt there was something lacking. What was lacking was the other set of commandmentsæthe commandments that concerned a man's relationship to God.
So Mark 10:21 states: And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing you lack: go, sell whatsoever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. At this point, we come to the root of the problem of this rich young ruler. The reason he did not have eternal life was because he was unable to keep the commandments that controlled a man's relationship to God. The one thing that kept him from trusting God for his salvation was his wealth. Because he had been brought up to believe that wealth was a sign of divine favor, he was trusting his wealth rather than God. And because he was trusting his wealth rather than God, he failed to keep the commandments that controlled a man's relationship to God. Jesus said he had to remove the one thing that was a stumbling-block to him. That one thing, which was keeping him from trusting God, was his wealth.
The principle being taught here is not that every rich man must dispense of his wealth to be saved, this would mean that salvation is by works. The principle being taught here is that you must not trust your wealth as a sign of divine favor. If you are trusting your wealth as a sign of divine favoræif that is the object of your trustæthen that wealth must be disposed of so that you can learn to trust God, and God alone.
This was something the rich man could not do and walked away sadly, as verse 22 states: But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
Yeshua responded in verses 23-24: And Jesus looked round about, and said unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answers again, and said unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Again, Pharisaism taught that wealth was a sign of divine favor. Unfortunately, people who are following the teaching of positive confession are also teaching that wealth is a sign of divine favor. As a result, wealthy men trusted their riches as a sign of already having eternal life. The problem was not their wealth; the problem was their trust in that wealth, because trusting their wealth, as a sign of divine favor, kept them from trusting God.
Then in verse 25, Yeshua said: It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matthew and Mark both use the Greek word that means a “sewing
needle.” Luke, however, uses a different Greek word which means a “surgeon's needle,” reflecting his own medical background. But all the Gospels point out that the disciples were astonished at what Jesus said, because it went contrary to the common teachings of that day.
In Matthew's account, chapter 19:25 points out: And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved? The disciples said, “If the rich can not make it, what chance do we have?”
But Yeshua responded in verse 26: And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. What may be impossible with men and what may be the teachings of men are not necessarily the teachings of Yeshua the Messiah, the teachings of God the Father, or the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua pointed out that God could save in any situation whether a man is poor or rich, because that which will save any man is trusting the Lord Jesus the Messiah for their salvation. To trust the Messiah for salvation is to personally believe that Jesus died for our sins; that He was buried; and that He rose again on the third day. If we believe this and accept it, whether we are rich or poor, this is how we have eternal life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It was certainly convenient for Arnold to just leave out what the Lord Jesus said here (in bold):
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
We can all look brilliant if we make comments on certain events and then you refuse to address the difficult passages. that is exactly what Arnold did.
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
I hate to break into the interesting discussion you're having with Intojoy, but I'd like to ask my previous question in a different way. When did physical death begin? And not just for humans, but animals and plants too.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is there anyplace that you can find where Arnold actually addresses what the Lord Jesus said here:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
Or perhaps you can find an article where Arnold addressed what Paul said here:
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).
If you can then that would be a big help.
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