Theology Club: Total Depravity

Angel4Truth · Oct 20, 2013

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
Can your works get you to Heaven without Jesus? Can anyone?

No, and that has nothing to do with being totally depraved. Total depravity would mean one could nothing except sin. The bible says even the heathens can love one another and non believers can give good gifts to their children and that we can only love because He first loved us.

That includes non believers. So no man is totally depraved - just partially.

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 21, 2013

Total depravity is not what some assume given the unfortunate assumption made by the word "total".
Sproul on the topic for those who did not watch the videos:

...a common point of debate among theologians focuses on the question, are human beings basically good or basically evil? The hinge upon which the argument turns is the word basically. It is a virtual universal consensus that nobody is perfect. We accept the maxim "To err is human."

The Bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Despite this verdict on human shortcomings, the idea persists in our humanistically dominated culture that sin is something peripheral or tangential to our nature. Indeed, we are flawed by sin. Our moral records exhibit blemishes. But somehow we think that our evil deeds reside at the rim or edge of our character and never penetrate to the core. Basically, it is assumed, people are inherently good.

After being rescued from captivity in Iraq and experiencing firsthand the corrupt methods of Saddam Hussein, one American hostage remarked, "Despite all that I endured I never lost my confidence in the basic goodness of people." Perhaps this view rests in part on a sliding scale of the relative goodness or wickedness of people. Obviously some people are far more wicked than others. Next to Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler the ordinary run-of-the-mill sinner looks like a saint. But if we lift our gaze to the ultimate standard of goodness—the holy character of God—we realize that what appears to be a basic goodness on an earthly level is corrupt to the core.

The Bible teaches the total depravity of the human race. Total depravity means radical corruption. We must be careful to note the difference between total depravity and utter depravity. To be utterly depraved is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. I am a sinner. Yet I could sin more often and more severely than I actually do. I am not utterly depraved, but I am totally depraved. For total depravity means that I and everyone else are depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin.

Perhaps radical corruption is a better term to describe our fallen condition than "total depravity." I am using the word radical not so much to mean "extreme," but to lean more heavily on its original meaning. Radical comes from the Latin word for "root" or "core." Our problem with sin is that it is rooted in the core of our being. It permeates our hearts. It is because sin is at our core and not merely at the exterior of our lives that the Bible says:

[FONT=&quot]There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)[/FONT]

It is because of this condition that the verdict of Scripture is heard: we are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); we are "sold under sin" (Romans 7:14); we are in "captivity to the law of sin" (Romans 7:23) and are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3). Only by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit may we be brought out of this state of spiritual death. It is God who makes us alive as we become His craftsmanship (Ephesians 2:1-10).
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AMR

intojoy · Oct 21, 2013

Total depravity means man can not do anything to Godward that is good.

Total depravity means that sin has touched every part of man and if he is left to himself man will never seek after God.

Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he can be. He is capable of doing good but this kind of good is of no value to God as it falls short of His glory.

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intojoy · Oct 21, 2013

AMR, isn't total depravity just a theological term meaning "not perfect"?

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Saved.One.by.Grace · Oct 21, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
No, and that has nothing to do with being totally depraved. Total depravity would mean one could nothing except sin. The bible says even the heathens can love one another and non believers can give good gifts to their children and that we can only love because He first loved us.

That includes non believers. So no man is totally depraved - just partially.

See AMR's remarks above.

Angel4Truth · Oct 21, 2013

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
See AMR's remarks above.

I did, and i don't agree

Saved.One.by.Grace · Oct 21, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
I did, and i don't agree

Then we are at an impasse.

intojoy · Oct 21, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
I did, and i don't agree

A4T, please, tell me that total depravity does not have to lead to limited atonement.

Just like a Calvinist can be right about eternal security and and arminian right about unlimited atonement we can have a middle position. I think.

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Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 22, 2013

intojoy said:
AMR, isn't total depravity just a theological term meaning "not perfect"?

No.

Not perfect implies some Scriptural goodness abides. Believers are not perfect, but they are also not totally depraved as is the unregenerate. Total depravity, or radical corruption means that the unregenerate is able only to sin more or sin less. Even when the unregenerate performs civil acts of goodness, e.g., giving to charity, helping the old lady across the road, etc., these acts are not performed with the right motives, contra Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 10:31; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Philippians 4:8.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY (Radical Corruption) - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jer 17:9)
Man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God, for their actions are wrongly motivated, that is, not for the glory of God, and are but filthy rags in the eyes of God. More here.

See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3

intojoy · Oct 22, 2013

Ask Mr. Religion said:
No.

Not perfect implies some Scriptural goodness abides. Believers are not perfect, but they are also not totally depraved as is the unregenerate. Total depravity, or radical corruption means that the unregenerate is able only to sin more or sin less. Even when the unregenerate performs civil acts of goodness, e.g., giving to charity, helping the old lady across the road, etc., these acts are not performed with the right motives, contra Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 10:31; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Philippians 4:8.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY (Radical Corruption) - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jer 17:9)
Man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God, for their actions are wrongly motivated, that is, not for the glory of God, and are but filthy rags in the eyes of God. More here.

See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3

Agreed

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Desert Reign · Oct 22, 2013

intojoy said:
Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he can be.

That's a bit of a straw man argument as I hardly think any OVer believes this. As to the Arminians. they can speak for themselves.

The Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is nonetheless completely wrong, just as all the 5 points are.

Total depravity teaches that man is unable to seek God, excepting those individuals whom God predestined to do so and gave the necessary grace.

When we point out such scriptures as Deut 4:29 or Jer 29:13 or Acts 17:27, illustrating basic principles that man should seek God and God is willing to be found by man, the reply is usually that this only applies to those whom God has predestined. Which is not a trifle disingenuous on God's part if it is true. After all, why would God say that he is willing to be found when he in effect has already chosen them?

But praise the Lord that everyone can read the Bible and see for themselves the obvious and fair principle that God is willing to be found by anyone who seeks him. This aspect of God's character glorifies God because it shows God is fair and generous. The idea that God is only willing to be found by those who he selected in advance in itself is bad enough but to then go around telling people that all they have to do is seek him with all their heart is the pits.

Total depravity had to be invented to support predestination so that Calvinists could say that everyone deserved damnation anyway. I have often said (see my signature on irresistible damnation) that in Calvinism, the vast majority of humanity cannot by any means whatsoever obtain salvation and the unique response I have received from Calvinists is that none of these people would ever want to be saved anyway. Is it just me or did I really a moment ago hear Calvinists proclaiming that our wills are not determinative of our eternal destiny? And yet here they are backtracking to get themselves out of trouble by elevating the role of the human will to a core pillar of their doctrine! Because they don't want to be saved, it makes their damnation right.

I really hope it isn't just me who can see the hypocrisy in this position.

DOCTA4me · Oct 22, 2013

If total depravity exists, then by deduction partial depravity exists too. So put sin on a continuum from totally depraved on the left to totally righteous on the right. My Bible tells me that God is totally righteous and that all men falls short of God’s glory somewhere to the left.

Calvinists make Man totally depraved (all the way to the left) and make God responsible for everything else – even the cesspool of filth right next to “total depravity.”

Christian Liberty · Oct 22, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.

Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.

Total depravity does not teach that every person is as evil as he can be in every situation, that would be ridiculous. What it teaches is that outside of Christ it is impossible to please God, and that evil permeates every part of his being.

Dialogos · Oct 22, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.

Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.

[/quote]
You demonstrate that you don't understand the doctrine of total depravity with these comments.

Total depravity doesn't mean that man is as bad as he could possibly be.

Dialogos · Oct 22, 2013

DESERT REIGN said:
That's a bit of a straw man argument as I hardly think any OVer believes this. As to the Arminians. they can speak for themselves.

Many have misrepresented the doctrine of Total Depravity and it’s clear that even those who are posting here haven’t taken the time to really investigate what this doctrine says and instead argue against a misrepresentation of Total Depravity.

DESERT REIGN said:
The Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is nonetheless completely wrong, just as all the 5 points are.

Total depravity teaches that man is unable to seek God, excepting those individuals whom God predestined to do so and gave the necessary grace.

Not even this is a fair treatment of the doctrine. Total depravity teaches that man is universally unable/unwilling to seek God. God’s sovereign election is the basis for regeneration which takes a spiritually dead person and makes them alive so that they can seek after God. The conundrum that both the Arminian and the OVer faces is, “how does a spiritually dead person regenerates himself or herself so that he or she can seek after God?”

DESERT REIGN said:
When we point out such scriptures as Deut 4:29

Take the time to actually look at that verse in context, you’ll find that it doesn’t help your case as much as you want it to.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice. (Deuteronomy 4:26-30 ESV)

Look at verse 26!
Moses calls heaven and earth as a witness that they won’t consistently seek God, and as a result won’t abide in the land but will perish from it and the Lord will scatter them among the people leaving them to serve idols as few in number among the nations.
And that, incidentally, is exactly what happened when the Assyrian Empire came and carried away the northern tribes and the Babylonian’s came and carried away the southern tribes.
Then, in the later days, they will return to the Lord God and obey His voice.
You don’t even realize that this verse in context completely disproves your point. Why, because God has not given them hearts to understand, eyes to see or ears to hear (Deuteronomy 29:4).
So what is so different between those in the later days who do return to the Lord and seek him and those in the former days who strayed from the Lord refusing to seek him?

Hmmm, maybe this has a lil something to do with it.

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (Ezekiel 11:19 ESV)

When God gives them a new spirit, and removes the heart of stone from their flesh, and gives them a heart of flesh, then they will seek Him, know Him, obey him. So it is clear that man is responsible to consistently seek after God but it is also clear that Moses had no confidence that they would.
Why do you think that was?
Maybe it had something to do with their hearts of stone?
Could it be that those hearts of stone rendered them unwilling and incapable of seeking after God like Paul says is the case in Romans 3:11.

DESERT REIGN said:
or Jer 29:13

Again, if you look at the verse in context you will see that they God won’t be found by them until the 70 years of exile had passed (see Jeremiah 29:10) and it is principally because after those 70 years, God promises to visit them, and restore them. Furthermore, I would argue that even this restoration is preparation for the New Covenant in which God writes his laws on their hearts and causes them to walk in His law.

DESERT REIGN said:
or Acts 17:27,

Where Paul points out that mankind is responsible for seeking after God which is not the same thing as say that each and every person is rendered spiritually able to seek after God and it is abundantly clear that not every single person is given equal opportunity to hear about Christ which makes Acts 17:26 a lot less friendly to the Arminian and Ov adherent.

DESERT REIGN said:
illustrating basic principles that man should seek God and God is willing to be found by man, the reply is usually that this only applies to those whom God has predestined.

Mankind should seek God. Agreed. That is not the same thing as saying that mankind, which is dead in trespasses and sins, is spiritually able to seek God.

DESERT REIGN said:
Which is not a trifle disingenuous on God's part if it is true. After all, why would God say that he is willing to be found when he in effect has already chosen them?

But praise the Lord that everyone can read the Bible and see for themselves the obvious and fair principle that God is willing to be found by anyone who seeks him.

That’s right!
Now everyone take your sharpies and black out Proverbs 1:28, Psalm 18:41, 1 Samuel 8:18, Jeremiah 11:11 Ezekiel 8:18!
Oops.

DESERT REIGN said:
This aspect of God's character glorifies God because it shows God is fair and generous.

Fair? You don’t want God to be “fair.” If God were acting based on what is fair, you would be thrown into hell with no chance of redemption and the man Jesus would have lived forever on earth. Fair means that the Righteous one lives and the sinner dies.
That's not how it went down, is it?
We sin, Jesus died.
What about that sounds fair to you?
God’s “fairness” only earns us damnation and gives the man Jesus His just rewards.
God’s generosity means that some are spared from God’s fairness and are led to repentance. God was under no obligation to save any single one of us, aren't you glad that you are the an object of His generosity rather than His fairness?

DESERT REIGN said:
The idea that God is only willing to be found by those who he selected in advance in itself is bad enough but to then go around telling people that all they have to do is seek him with all their heart is the pits.

You can impugn the character of Almighty God all you like, you will have to answer to Him for it.
I will start my evaluations from scripture and reason outward rather than impose a fallen human understanding of what a “fair” God should do and then project that understanding onto scriptures contorting the meaning of inspired words in order to make them fit.

DESERT REIGN said:
Total depravity had to be invented to support predestination so that Calvinists could say that everyone deserved damnation anyway.

Total depravity is the observation that sin affects the whole person, bodily and spiritually. Mind, reason and emotion are all affected by sin and as such the unregenerate man does not have a truly free will for his will is in bondage to sin.
Perhaps you think it is fallacious to assume that everyone deserves damnation. If you do, perhaps you would be so kind as to list a few people other than the perfect Son of God, who do not deserve damnation because they have earned their place in heaven and are not in need of saving grace.
A short list will be fine, 5 or 6 people will suffice.
:chuckle:

DESERT REIGN said:
I have often said (see my signature on irresistible damnation) that in Calvinism, the vast majority of humanity cannot by any means whatsoever obtain salvation and the unique response I have received from Calvinists is that none of these people would ever want to be saved anyway.

Totally true.

DESERT REIGN said:
Is it just me or did I really a moment ago hear Calvinists proclaiming that our wills are not determinative of our eternal destiny?

Is it just me or does the prospect of God leaving our eternal destinies up to a sin infected heart of stone and a spiritually dead faculty of will not sound like good news?
Perhaps you think that you are just naturally better, or smarter or more spiritual than your lost neighbor, so that you have some reason to brag but as for me, I am absolutely sure that salvation is not of myself. It is truly a gift, therefore I cannot boast. God didn’t find me faithfully seeking after him, He found me and saved me while I an enemy, hostile in mind and doing evil deeds.
How about you?

DESERT REIGN said:
And yet here they are backtracking to get themselves out of trouble by elevating the role of the human will to a core pillar of their doctrine!

Straw man. The sovereignty of God over salvation has always been the core pillar of Calvinistic doctrine. It’s not “backtracking” to point out that people who are dead in trespasses and sins don’t naturally choose to follow the paths of righteousness in and of themselves, it is, and has always been, a key observation of Calvinism.
Now, I suppose that some Calvinists are duped by the essentially bankrupt argument that God isn’t being “fair” to choose some and not others. I’m not.
The only answer to why God chooses some and not all is Romans 9:20.
Nevertheless, it’s just disingenuous to argue that some will go into hell with the objection that they wanted to seek God they just couldn’t.

Dialogos · Oct 22, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
No, and that has nothing to do with being totally depraved.

You are either uninformed about the doctrine of total depravity or you are willingly misrepresenting the doctrine of total depravity.

The former is excusable and there are many here who have already endeavored to clear up the confusion.

The latter is bearing false witness!

AngelforTruth said:
Total depravity would mean one could nothing except sin.

Untrue.

Why are you so unwilling to let Calvinists define what Calvinists believe?

Total depravity is Total not in the extent of the depravity but in the scope of one's depravity.

For example, a pizza that is cut into 12 slices could be accurately described as "totally ruined" if every single slice of pizza was covered with pineapple (and yes, pineapple does, in fact, ruin a pizza).

That does not mean that every single piece of pizza has nothing but pineapple all over it, it just means that there isn't a single slices of pizza that hasn't been touched by pineapple.

The doctrine of Total depravity states, and has always stated, that no aspect of human existence is untouched by sin, therefore man is totally depraved.

Angel4truth said:
The bible says even the heathens can love one another and non believers can give good gifts to their children and that we can only love because He first loved us.

That includes non believers. So no man is totally depraved - just partially.

And there is no Calvinist who would argue that heaths can't love one another or that non-believers can't give good gifts.

You aren't disproving total depravity only a inaccurate caricature of total depravity.

Now, if you have done so, up to this point, unknowingly, that's no big deal. However, if you know what total depravity really teaches, and yet refuse to allow Calvinists to define their own doctrine and instead insist on putting words in our mouths so that you more easily refute the words that you put there in the first place, then you are bearing false witness and I would gently request that you stop.

intojoy · Oct 22, 2013

For me total depravity and limited atonement are not connected. They are deprecate issues. Total depravity defined properly is an accurate depicting of man's nature but limited atonement is a depicting of reasoning and logic but not provable by the scriptures themselves.

Desert Rain didn't elaborate on the reason he denies election/predestination.

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Angel4Truth · Oct 22, 2013

Dialogos said:
You are either uninformed about the doctrine of total depravity or you are willingly misrepresenting the doctrine of total depravity.

The former is excusable and there are many here who have already endeavored to clear up the confusion.

The latter is bearing false witness!

Untrue.

Why are you so unwilling to let Calvinists define what Calvinists believe?

Total depravity is Total not in the extent of the depravity but in the scope of one's depravity.

For example, a pizza that is cut into 12 slices could be accurately described as "totally ruined" if every single slice of pizza was covered with pineapple (and yes, pineapple does, in fact, ruin a pizza).

That does not mean that every single piece of pizza has nothing but pineapple all over it, it just means that there isn't a single slices of pizza that hasn't been touched by pineapple.

The doctrine of Total depravity states, and has always stated, that no aspect of human existence is untouched by sin, therefore man is totally depraved.

And there is no Calvinist who would argue that heaths can't love one another or that non-believers can't give good gifts.

You aren't disproving total depravity only a inaccurate caricature of total depravity.

Now, if you have done so, up to this point, unknowingly, that's no big deal. However, if you know what total depravity really teaches, and yet refuse to allow Calvinists to define their own doctrine and instead insist on putting words in our mouths so that you more easily refute the words that you put there in the first place, then you are bearing false witness and I would gently request that you stop.

No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.

Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?

intojoy · Oct 23, 2013

Angel4Truth said:
No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.

Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?

JM is a strict calvanist. I believe in the unlimited atonement but believe the doctrine of election by God's good pleasure totally outside of man's merit. I believe man must be elected and part of election is enabling to seek God. Because of election I was able to exercise my will to believe. Without that enabling my will would have been limited to unbelief.

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intojoy · Oct 23, 2013

That way God remains sovereign by saving completely by grace and I am responsible for my faith.

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