Theology Club: Total Depravity
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The problem with Calvinistic total depravity is that the world view that lies behind Calvinism cannot cope with the idea that both man and God can be good. In this world view God is all good, therefore man cannot be any good. Similarly, God is all powerful therefore man cannot have any power.
The Calvinistic doctrine of the fall of man and total depravity are fundamental to this world view because this worldview needs a historical event to occur which renders man useless. Let's put it another way: if there was no such thing as the fall of man, Calvinism would have to invent one and the Genesis 3 narratives happen to fit the bill so it was they that fell prey to the Calvinistic presupposition.
Of course, the doctrine of the fall of man was around long before Calvin was a twinkle in his mother's eye. It is after all a Greek world view that we are talking about. Nevertheless he espoused it even more than any previously such that it morphed into full blown depravity doctrine.
Calvinistic total depravity as the result of a historical event is analogous to the gnostic idea of a demiurge in a-historical terms. In gnosticism, the original ONE, cannot possibly create anything evil or imperfect and so a series of intermediate creations eventually become the agents of the creation of an imperfect world.
In gnosticism, at least those in the know can find their way back to the ONE. In Calvinism, there is only hope for the elect and there is no salvation or purpose to look forward to for anyone else.
The Calvinistic doctrine of the fall of man and total depravity are fundamental to this world view because this worldview needs a historical event to occur which renders man useless. Let's put it another way: if there was no such thing as the fall of man, Calvinism would have to invent one and the Genesis 3 narratives happen to fit the bill so it was they that fell prey to the Calvinistic presupposition.
Of course, the doctrine of the fall of man was around long before Calvin was a twinkle in his mother's eye. It is after all a Greek world view that we are talking about. Nevertheless he espoused it even more than any previously such that it morphed into full blown depravity doctrine.
Calvinistic total depravity as the result of a historical event is analogous to the gnostic idea of a demiurge in a-historical terms. In gnosticism, the original ONE, cannot possibly create anything evil or imperfect and so a series of intermediate creations eventually become the agents of the creation of an imperfect world.
In gnosticism, at least those in the know can find their way back to the ONE. In Calvinism, there is only hope for the elect and there is no salvation or purpose to look forward to for anyone else.
glorydaz
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Thanks, but I'll stick to the Bible.
Let me introduce you to Cain and Abel.
Gen. 4:3-7
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Then let Paul introduce you to those Gentiles, WHO DID BY NATURE THE THINGS contained in the law...their CONSCIENCE bearing witness.
Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.
Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
glorydaz
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Exactly. And just think of how many really moral people there are who do not believe in the Lord. They follow their God given conscience without even admitting God created them thus....but even one sin separates us from our Holy God.
The problem is that man can never be worthy enough to come into the presence of God unless he is gifted with the righteousness of Christ... by confessing Him as Lord and believing in his heart that He was crucified for our iniquities and raised again so that we could have LIFE. We must be IN HIM to have LIFE. We can only be IN HIM through the obedience of FAITH. Man can only believe unto righteousness...he can not perform perfectly enough. Then righteousness is accounted to us in spite of our falling short of the glory of God.
The depravity of man is a choice as shown in the above posts. The capacity for good & evil lies within us all, and we make the choice to move towards God or to follow our flesh towards evil. If we are made in the image & likeness of God than it is impossible to be "Totally Depraved" being we also carry some of God's attributes as A4T shows in Matt 7:11 the capacity for good also, we may be partially depraved because of our sinful flesh but, not totally.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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I guess you consider Charles Spurgeon a heretic in the same vein as John Calvin.
Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Total Depravity
<!-- removed link from by-line: -->from Nathan W. Bingham Mar 14, 2012
In Steven Lawson’s latest book, The Gospel Focus of Charles Spurgeon, Lawson argues that Charles Spurgeon’s fervent commitment to the doctrines of grace “sharpened” his “gospel focus.” So what exactly did Spurgeon believe about the five points of Calvinism? Using excerpts from The Gospel Focus of Charles Spurgeon, we’ll answer that question in what will be a five part series on the blog. Our prayer is that these truths will sharpen your gospel focus also.
Today we discover what Charles Spurgeon believed about the doctrine of Total Depravity.
<HR>Charles Spurgeon clearly understood that before an evangelist can communicate the good news of salvation, he first must convey the bad news of condemnation. The black velvet backdrop of man’s sin must be laid out before the sparkling diamond of God’s sovereign grace can be seen in its dazzling luster. This begins with the Bible’s teaching on Adam’s sin, which brought about death. Spurgeon asserted:
But Adam’s sin did not affect only himself. His fallen nature spread to the entire human race, and every part of every person is fatally plagued by spiritual death. Spurgeon wrote: “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.” He added: “The venom of sin is in the very fountain of our being; it has poisoned our heart. It is in the very marrow of our bones and is as natural to us as anything that belongs to us.” He believed that the entire person—mind, affections, and will—is polluted and poisoned by original sin.
There is no beast in wolf or lion or serpent that is so brutish as the beast in man. —Charles Spurgeon
The result, he said, is that “a very hell of corruption lies within the best saint.” Spurgeon recognized that sin lies deep within the souls of even the best of men. This inward corruption makes every man a savage beast: “There is no beast in wolf or lion or serpent that is so brutish as the beast in man.” All people are spiritually dead, unable to see, desire, or respond to the gospel message.
Regarding the will, Spurgeon said, “We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will will ever be constrained toward Christ.” By this statement, Spurgeon affirmed that the volitional capacity of sinful man is paralyzed, leaving him incapable of responding to the free offer of Christ.
As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. —Charles Spurgeon
Consequently, Spurgeon resisted the notion of human free will. He contended that such an idea elevates man to the place reserved for God alone: “Free-will doctrine—what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man.” Further, Spurgeon affirmed, “If God requires of the sinner, dead in sin, that he should take the first step, then he requires just that which renders salvation as impossible under the gospel as it was under the law, since man is as unable to believe as he is to obey.” Simply put, Spurgeon believed that no human will is entirely free. It is either a slave of sin or a slave of Christ, but never free.
For Spurgeon, this was where the message of the gospel begins. The saving message of grace starts with total depravity. Man is entirely corrupted by sin. He is spiritually dead and unable to save himself. He could not be more hopeless and helpless.
<HR style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; WIDTH: 50%">So if you're going to throw Calvin under the bus, you must also throw Calvinist CH Spurgeon.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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"There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it." - Charles H. Spurgeon
“And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else” - Charles H. Spurgeon
SOURCE: From The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, Curts and Jennings, Cincinnati - Chicago - St. Louis, 1898, Vol. I., Page 172.
So there's no need to introduce me to any biblical character. I do not believe you, I believe the bible as did Spurgeon and Calvin before me.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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glorydaz
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I gave you verses from Scripture and you give me men?
How about just addressing the verses, themselves?
glorydaz
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Believing in Jesus isn't a work.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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Then Jesus died for no reason. All the sacrifices demanded by God were for no reason. So David was wrong when he wrote:
<DIR>Psa 14:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psa 14:4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
Psa 14:5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
Psa 14:6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
</DIR>Or when Paul says the same thing in Romans (3:10).
Saved.One.by.Grace
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Wrong again. With every post I make, I give three versus from Ephesians. They are there, you may choose to ignore them, it's up to you.
I am not in the habit of calling people heretics. God will do the judging, not me. In order to protect the faith from false teachers, it is necessary only to denounce their false teachings and show why they are false. Calling someone a heretic merely demonstrates your intellectual inferiority.
Each of us stands or falls by our relationship with God. Sure, we get things wrong from time to time in our beliefs but when you have to lay down the law to protect your own teaching from opposition, (calling others heretics, anathema, burning them with extra slow burning wood - especially if their name happens to begin and end with s - etc.) you have already abandoned your faith in the Holy Spirit. You have taken over the Holy Spirit's own work.
In any case I can't work out why you would think I have anything to do with Charles Spurgeon? Whatever vein Calvin was in, Spurgeon was also in by his own admission. You don't need to ask me that.
By the way, thanks for starting the thread. It's a good subject to discuss.
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How so?, if man has the capacity for good also then he is not totally depraved, totally means completely. Sacrifices for anyones benefit is because we miss the mark of perfection which is the standard. There is only One who is perfect and lived perfectly after all and David a man after God's own heart, was not completely depraved but, he surely missed the mark in many places as we all do. I just don't buy the total depravity calvinist doctrine.
zippy2006
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True.
Calvinists inherit that Voluntaristic premise of Modern Philosophy that says God is fundamentally in competition with man. The mutual exclusivity of man's goodness and God's goodness is corollary as is Total Depravity.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just misread my previous reply. I asked if you were calling men like CH Spurgeon and John Calvin heretics? If you wish to call them who are Christians as heretics within the body of Christ, it is your right to as a Christian, as the bible says. We are not to tolerate un-Christian behavior. (1 Corinthians 5:12-5:13 HCSB)
I called no one in the body of Christ a heretic. I asked if you were. If I were not in the Church, judgment would be Gods. (1 Corinthians 5:12-5:13 HCSB) I do not believe you'll find me calling a non-Christian a heretic. Within the Christian community, we are instructed not to tolerate sinful behavior that may lead others astray.
Charles H. Spurgeon is revered by many Christians, Calvinists and Reformed. That basically covers a lot of Christians. I presented it for information purposes only. If it doesn't apply, disregard.
You are very welcome. I hope to present the other letters of TULIP as time permits. I hope you don't take anything I've said as personal, I'm just talking (writing) within the limits Paul and others set forth in their teaching. I'm not a teacher, nor am I qualified to preach to others. I will make mistakes. By recognizing those mistakes, and being corrected by other Christians like yourself, will make the whole body of Christ stronger.
I don't think I misread anything you said. You asked me if I thought person x was a heretic. I replied that I don't call people heretics just because I happen to disagree with them.
But as to giving me the benefit of the doubt, you are not my judge and I really don't care what you think of me.
Glad to hear it.
It's not a question of my disregarding it if it doesn't apply. You brought the subject up as if it were important to the discussion. In fact I don't believe you dealt with anything in my first post at all. You did not engage with me.
I am left wondering if you live in a completely different world to the rest of us. You seem to think that 'Calvinists and Reformed' (which are the same thing anyway) are mainstream Christianity and everyone else is an oddball. You are very wrong about that. In fact it is reformed theology that that is in the minority. A quite small minority really. And even the Anglicans, who in principle follow reformed theological beliefs, often just pay lip service to it: the laity in their hearts believe their choices play a determinative role in their destiny. All their actions demonstrate that. And many of their clergy would jump at the chance of reuniting with the Catholics if it weren't for a few obnoxious doctrines such as papal infallibility or the queen of heaven. In Europe, reformed churches are basically museums. The baptists are half in and half out, veering steadily towards open charismatic faith. Reformed theology just leaves them confused. It is only in America that you now find it in strength.
You say that reality is what is still there no matter how much you disbelieve it. The reality is that not only I but millions of other Christians the world over, do not consider Spurgeon to be any authority and citing him as if it were normal to highly regard him shows that it is you who are not aware of the reality. C.S. Lewis would perhaps be a better example of someone who found favour with a much wider audience. But then his writings showed that he also was veering away from reformed beliefs.
Thank you. Perhaps you could continue by actually engaging with my first post. As you say, it is not personal but that doesn't mean that when I write something, I am not a person.
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glorydaz
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They insist on total depravity to support their doctrine of election. Once you begin to build a house on a faulty foundation, you just keep adding rooms without solid support. One falsehood begets another.
Saved.One.by.Grace
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