Theology Club: Total Depravity

[Jerry Shugart]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The peace and calm came when I gave up and took in my first lungful of river water. It hurt but the peace and calm stayed.

I wrote about this in my Blog. I don't talk to people about it because it's mostly met with silence or disbelief. My Blog is the third time I've written about the experience, and the one to follow, in 45 years. You don't have to believe me, it's not like I was dead or even unconscious. God knows I don't believe 99% of the people that say they've been to Heaven. But that's a subject for another time and there won't be any anecdote from me.

OK.

But would you give me the best evidence which you can find in the Bible which you think demonstrates that all people emerge from the womb totally depraved. In other words, what Scriptural evidencecan you give that supports what is said in the Westminster Confession of Faith here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

Thanks!

 

[intojoy]

OK.



But would you give me the best evidence which you can find in the Bible which you think demonstrates that all people emerge from the womb totally depraved. In other words, what Scriptural evidencecan you give that supports what is said in the Westminster Confession of Faith here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

Thanks!

Just look in the mirror jer

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just look in the mirror jer

Lol!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

OK.

But would you give me the best evidence which you can find in the Bible which you think demonstrates that all people emerge from the womb totally depraved. In other words, what Scriptural evidencecan you give that supports what is said in the Westminster Confession of Faith here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
​

Thanks!

Okay.

Mar 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 - greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mar 7:23 - All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean.'" [NASB]
​

<DIR>
Rom 6:20 - When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. [NASB]

</DIR><DIR>
Rom 3:10 - As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 - there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." [NASB]

</DIR><DIR>1 Co 2:14 - The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. [NASB]

</DIR><DIR>
Eph 2:3 - All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. [NASB]

</DIR><DIR>
Eph 2:15 - by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, [NASB]

</DIR><DIR>
Eph 1:1 - Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 - Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Eph 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Eph 1:6 - to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Eph 1:7 - In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
Eph 1:8 - that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
Eph 1:9 - And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
Eph 1:10 - to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Eph 1:11 -In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [NASB]

</DIR>
Start with those, and then I'll add to it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Start with those, and then I'll add to it.

None of those verses say that anyone comes out of the womb like that. I believe the following verse speaks of our natural state before we sin and become spiritually dead:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

Since Paul describes the law as being holy and just and good (Ro.7:12) then can we not understand that a person by nature can do good?

Therefore, I cannot see how The Westminster Confession of Faith would state that people are made opposite to all good.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

None of those verses say that anyone comes out of the womb like that. I believe the following verse speaks of our natural state before we sin and become spiritually dead:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).
​

Since Paul describes the law as being holy and just and good (Ro.7:12) then can we not understand that a person by nature can do good?

Therefore, I cannot see how The Westminster Confession of Faith would state that people are made opposite to all good.

The Westminster Confession of Faith was written by men. I have not read it nor will I defend or reject it. I am a believer in the bible, sola scriptura, and will answer questions as best I can based on my understanding of the bible. So your quoting of the Westminster Confession of Faith is a non-starter for this discussion.

Moving on. Since some of the verses cited talk about man's condition before the world was created, that implies correctly before conception. I've given you ample biblical quotes to respond to. You then proceeded to punt. Instead, you quote the Westminster Confession of Faith and Romans 7:12 out of context. If we are truly going to have a dialog my friend, let's discuss what I actually write and/or quote. I responded to your question, now you respond to my answer or accept it as truth, by default.

Once again this morning I was hit in the face with my own words on another thread speaking against you. I once again apologize for my past behavior, this time more publically. It was wrong of me, but you showed yourself to be the bigger man for accepting my apology and not holding past behavior against me. God bless you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I responded to your question, now you respond to my answer or accept it as truth, by default.

You did not respond to what I said earlier because you gave no evidence that the verses which you quoted are in regard to how people emerge from the womb. Again, here is what I said:

But would you give me the best evidence which you can find in the Bible which you think demonstrates that all people emerge from the womb totally depraved.​

Since some of the verses cited talk about man's condition before the world was created, that implies correctly before conception.

I certainly do not see any of those verses saying anything about that. If you want to use that argument then show me in the passages where we read such a thing.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

You did not respond to what I said earlier because you gave no evidence that the verses which you quoted are in regard to how people emerge from the womb. Again, here is what I said:

But would you give me the best evidence which you can find in the Bible which you think demonstrates that all people emerge from the womb totally depraved.
​

Mark 7:21-23 certainly applies, as does Romans 3:10-12. The quotes from Ephesians certainly apply too. I'm not sure what your looking for. The scriptures are quite clear. Unless you're arguing that all people are born with the Holy Spirit from the womb, I do not believe you have anything to support your argument.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Unless you're arguing that all people are born with the Holy Spirit from the womb, I do not believe you have anything to support your argument.

What about being born of the Spirit upon conception?

Let us look at the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts, it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regeneration "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Richard C. Trench says that the word has the meaning of "a recovery, a restoration" (Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament).

Therefore, if a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit then that must mean that this represents his being brought back to his original condition of being born of the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what the Lord Jesus is referring to here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (Jn.3:3,5-7).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

What about being born of the Spirit upon conception?

Mar 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 - greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mar 7:23 - All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean.'" [NASB]
​

Notice what Jesus doesn't say. He does not qualify people when he refers to man. Does that exclude women? No. Does that exclude non-Jewish people outside the Mosaic Law? No. The question never came up. All means ALL. All these evils came out of men, women and children. Jesus makes makes no adjustment for the aged or the young, the rich or the poor, the unintelligent or the intelligent, etc.

Maybe our Roman Catholic friends would argue that Mary was born filled with the Holy Spirit? But that is a slippery slope one is going down. For if others are born filled with the Holy Spirit why did Jesus have to assend to His Father before the Holy Spirit could be sent? And what does that suggest of the Holy Spirit? That the Holy Spirit (who I believe is God and the 3rd Person of the Trinity) cannot provide enough help for Man, even though you suggest He may have been there with a child in the womb, and cannot keep a child from growing up to be a sinner. There is no Biblical support for such a position.

Once again you provide no answers to the Holy Scriptures I provided. Remember, this argument is centered around Total Depravity (Total Inability), the tee of T-U-L-I-P. It seems like you're avoiding those scriptures intentionally. You have yet to provide an adequate response to Jesus' own words.

I'll go over your post again this evening or tomorrow. In particular, I will give some thought to the quotes from Titus and John, in context. I ask you to do the same on the scriptures I quoted. We won't get anywhere by just picking scriptures out of the air. Let us respond to one another to uncover the mysteries, the gems hidden in the scriptures.

Hope you are well, and God bless.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Mar 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 - greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mar 7:23 - All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean.'" [NASB]
​

Notice what Jesus doesn't say. He does not qualify people when he refers to man.

Nice job of refusing to make any comment on what I wrote even though it was you who brought up the subject. I will address what you said here and in return I expect you to return the favor by replying to what I said about "regeneration."

Mar 7:21 -For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 - greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mar 7:23 - All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean.'" [NASB]

Notice what Jesus doesn't say. He does not qualify people when he refers to man. Does that exclude women? No. Does that exclude non-Jewish people outside the Mosaic Law? No. The question never came up.

This cannot possibly apply to infants. After all, the Lord Jesus said the following about them:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord believed that infants are totally depraved from the womb but yet the Lord Jesus would say, "for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"?

Frankly, that makes no sense to me. At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If you are right then the Lord Jesus was teaching that unless we become "totally depraved" we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven! That is patently ridiculous and common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus did not believe that infants come into this world "totally depraved.

We can also see that children are also described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).​

If infants are "totally depraved" then why would the following verse speak of a baby being "wonderfully made"?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Speaking of nice jobs, nice job Jerry of editing my post which answers your question about the Holy Spirit in total. I know I brought it up first not thinking you would actually support such an idea. I gave you more credit than that. Are you Roman Catholic by chance?

Mar 7:21 -For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 - greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mar 7:23 - All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean.'" [NASB]

"Notice what Jesus doesn't say. He does not qualify people when he refers to man. Does that exclude women? No. Does that exclude non-Jewish people outside the Mosaic Law? No. The question never came up. All means ALL. All these evils came out of men, women and children. Jesus makes makes no adjustment for the aged or the young, the rich or the poor, the unintelligent or the intelligent, etc.

"Maybe our Roman Catholic friends would argue that Mary was born filled with the Holy Spirit? But that is a slippery slope one is going down. For if others are born filled with the Holy Spirit why did Jesus have to assend to His Father before the Holy Spirit could be sent? And what does that suggest of the Holy Spirit? That the Holy Spirit (who I believe is God and the 3rd Person of the Trinity) cannot provide enough help for Man, even though you suggest He may have been there with a child in the womb, and cannot keep a child from growing up to be a sinner. There is no Biblical support for such a position." (From previous post).
​

There is a difference between infants and little children walking towards Jesus. You know that right? Jesus died for them too.

Homework: There may have been no one greater than John the Baptist up until Jesus time. What did Jesus say about John? Didn't John recognize his need for a savior?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Speaking of nice jobs, nice job Jerry of editing my post which answers your question about the Holy Spirit in total. I know I brought it up first not thinking you would actually support such an idea. I gave you more credit than that. Are you Roman Catholic by chance?

I answered your point and since you did not like my answer you attempt to associate me with the Roman Catholics. May I remind you that your beliefs on this subject go hand and hand with their teaching. Mine do not.

And here is what you said in reply to the Lord Jesus' words about little children:

There is a difference between infants and little children walking towards Jesus. You know that right? Jesus died for them too.

That answers nothing about what the Lord Jesus said about little children. So now you have failed to respond to my answer to a subject you yourself brought up and you have given no intelligent response to what I said about little children.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I answered your point and since you did not like my answer you attempt to associate me with the Roman Catholics. May I remind you that your beliefs on this subject go hand and hand with their teaching. Mine do not.

And here is what you said in reply to the Lord Jesus' words about little children:



That answers nothing about what the Lord Jesus said about little children. So now you have failed to respond to my answer to a subject you yourself brought up and you have given no intelligent response to what I said about little children.

The bible says all. I have already provided you with the biblical answer that you reject. I'm not starting my own religion here. You are trying to disprove original sin. Yet you offer no support from scripture. Accept the bible for what I it says, not what you think it should say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The bible says all. I have already provided you with the biblical answer that you reject.

I do not deny the idea that once a person sins then that person's behavior can be described as totally depraved. But here is what your man Sproul says about that:

"We are born with a sin nature. Our acts of sin flow out of this corrupted nature" (Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1997], 119).​

I showed by the Lord Jesus' comments about little children that He certainly did not believe that they were totally depraved. And nothing which you said even began to address what He said.

I'm not starting my own religion here. You are trying to disprove original sin. Yet you offer no support from scripture. Accept the bible for what I it says, not what you think it should say.

I disproved the myth of "Original Sin" and you refused to even attempt to address what I said. Here it is again:

Let us look at the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts, it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regeneration "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Richard C. Trench says that the word has the meaning of "a recovery, a restoration" (Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament).

Therefore, if a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit then that must mean that this represents his being brought back to his original condition of being born of the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what the Lord Jesus is referring to here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (Jn.3:3,5-7).​

Since we are born spiritually alive it is obvious that we are not born with a sin nature.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I do not deny the idea that once a person sins then that person's behavior can be described as totally depraved. But here is what your man Sproul says about that:

"We are born with a sin nature. Our acts of sin flow out of this corrupted nature" (Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1997], 119).
​

The Bible states that we are born sinners and that also we are all sinners by nature. I will start with a Psalm of David.


<DIR>Psalm 51:5 - Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. [NASB]


</DIR>This is further supported by Ephesians 2:2 which states:


<DIR>Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3 - All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. [KJV]


</DIR>Ephesians 2:2 states, in effect, that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes the childs sin nature by saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." By nature children of wrath from the womb, thereby establishing the truth of original sin concept. Add to that the following scripture:

There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence ... so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Bible states that we are born sinners and that also we are all sinners by nature. I will start with a Psalm of David.

Psalm 51:5- Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me

I will answer another of your verses in the hope that sometime in the futire you will finally get around to answering my points about "regeneration."

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).​

First of all, David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

If we want to know what the Lord Jesus Himself thought of the nature of little children we see something entirely different than what you are trying to prove.

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord believed that infants are brought forth in iniquity but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If little children come out of the womb sinful then why would the Lord Jesus tell these people that they must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom?

Ephesians 2:2 states, in effect, that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes the childs sin nature by saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." By nature children of wrath from the womb, thereby establishing the truth of original sin concept

I could not find even one translation which reads "By nature children of wrath from the womb. No, not one. Your position is so weak that you resort to adding words to the Scriptures which are not found in the Bible.

There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child."

So are we supposed to take the rod to infants to correct them?:

"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him" (Prov.22:15).​

This verse is obviously not speaking of how anyone emerges from the womb. If an infant is conceived in sin then what is said here makes no sense:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

You can quote all the verses which you want of this kind but they will mean little until you address the verses which I quoted where the Lord Jesus had a very different understanding of the nature of little children than your understanding.

 

[intojoy]

Total Depravity

I wonder what the motive is here.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I wonder what the motive is here.

I wonder what is your motive?

 

[intojoy]

I wonder what is your motive?

Not that it's bad. It makes me wonder if you've lost a child brother.

My motive is stupid. I guess I'm lonely.