Theology Club: What is Open Theism?

[Bright Raven]

I agree. So where do Matt Slick and John Sanders come up with such outrageously ridiculous things? Our future is known. Our choices are known though God does not make them for us. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is in all time at all time. To claim that God doesn't know what our choices will be and therefore doesn't know the future is to deny the Prophets. It's a denial of Yeshua's revelation to John. And consider Psalm 139.

Interesting that you mention both these men in the same sentence. One believes in open theism, the other does not.

 

[IMJerusha]

This is exactly right, and exactly what OTers try to avoid acknowledging.

I don't avoid it and I'm an OT'er

The introduction of ~possibles~ that God might not know about, or which might act to change God's mind, is similar to the Roman Catholic sect of Molinism, who like to speculate about such things . . . only in the attempt to retain belief in libertarian free will and claim the sovereignty of God at the same time.

God, in His omniscience, knows about all possibilities and acknowledges such. See 2 Chronicles 7:14 for example. It's all about choice. It's just that in His omniscience, God knows what our choices will be.

It is an awkward, theological balancing act, to try to have it both ways, as Open Theists and Molinists and godrulz practice.

That's a three way, Nang, like Skyline Chili!

 

[IMJerusha]

Interesting that you mention both these men in the same sentence. One believes in open theism, the other does not.

Oh, hey, I pulled those names out of a hat, remember!?


Seriously, it's hard to tell from the way Matt Slick's article is posted whether he is for or against.

 

[Lighthouse]

I question His sanctioning of us deciding what He is capable of and what He is not.

Who said anything about us deciding of what He is capable? We've come to the conclusion that He has told us, through Scripture, that the future doesn't exist and thus cannot be an object of knowledge in a definitive manner.

WE don't decide. Scripture tells us.

Exactly.

I agree. So where do Matt Slick and John Sanders come up with such outrageously ridiculous things? Our future is known. Our choices are known though God does not make them for us. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is in all time at all time. To claim that God doesn't know what our choices will be and therefore doesn't know the future is to deny the Prophets. It's a denial of Yeshua's revelation to John. And consider Psalm 139.

And what Scripture do you have to support the idea that our future is known? What part of Psalm 139 leads you to believe that? Or 2 Chronicles 7:14?

 

[IMJerusha]

Who said anything about us deciding of what He is capable? We've come to the conclusion that He has told us, through Scripture, that the future doesn't exist and thus cannot be an object of knowledge in a definitive manner.

Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.

<snip>

And what Scripture do you have to support the idea that our future is known? What part of Psalm 139 leads you to believe that? Or 2 Chronicles 7:14?

"And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.

 

[Lighthouse]

Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.

And if Scripture shows the future is non-extant and thus unknowable how is it ludicrous to recognize it? And what Scriptures would we be denying, exactly?<snip>

"And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.

So you can't find a single verse, or passage, that states your case? You do realize that Revelation is symbolic in nature, don't you? I mean, there are some things that aren't, but they are very few. Thus the only things we really get from such messages are that God knows His plans, but that the specifics of our free actions don't exist to be known.
</snip>

 

[DFT_Dave]

Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.

<snip>

"And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.

He is the beginning and the end "not knows" the beginning from the end.

God begins things and ends them, that would mean time for God, right?

--Dave

 

[IMJerusha]

And if Scripture shows the future is non-extant and thus unknowable how is it ludicrous to recognize it? And what Scriptures would we be denying, exactly?<snip>

Non-extant to whom, Lighthouse? To God? Not possible.

If God knew long before Jeremiah was conceived that he would be a prophet, there's no way that He didn't know Jeremiah's choice to be a servant of God and how Jeremiah would be received.

So you can't find a single verse, or passage, that states your case? You do realize that Revelation is symbolic in nature, don't you? I mean, there are some things that aren't, but they are very few. Thus the only things we really get from such messages are that God knows His plans, but that the specifics of our free actions don't exist to be known.
</snip>

Actually, I did post the first passage I came across in Scripture that shows clearly that God knows the future. I think Revelation is exactly as we are meant to have it. Whether it's symbolic in nature or not, I don't know. I suspect that Yeshua gave His revelation to John knowing full well that John would not understand everything He was showing him and that it would be written down descriptively. To what purpose?...well, no man is to know the day or hour of His return. We're to live as though it will be today, this moment.

 

[IMJerusha]

He is the beginning and the end "not knows" the beginning from the end.

God begins things and ends them, that would mean time for God, right?

--Dave

I believe, from Scripture, that God is in all time at all time; that He knows our decisions before we make them but does not make them for us. In Deuteronomy, for example, God knew that Israel would rebel against Him and gave Moses the words to put into a song. He knew what their choice would be, He knew how He would repay their choice and He knew how they would end. The song is God's prophecy. And there is no way that God could have given us so much prophecy throughout Scripture if He were not in all time at all time. The one thing you will never hear God say is "Golly, I never thought things would turn out this way!"

 

[godrulz]

I believe, from Scripture, that God is in all time at all time; that He knows our decisions before we make them but does not make them for us. In Deuteronomy, for example, God knew that Israel would rebel against Him and gave Moses the words to put into a song. He knew what their choice would be, He knew how He would repay their choice and He knew how they would end. The song is God's prophecy. And there is no way that God could have given us so much prophecy throughout Scripture if He were not in all time at all time. The one thing you will never hear God say is "Golly, I never thought things would turn out this way!"

You believe from your interpretation of Scripture...other equally capable, godly Scripture users come to different conclusions from Scripture. I would suggest there are alternate understandings to your proof texting/eisegesis/preconceived ideas.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I believe, from Scripture, that God is in all time at all time; that He knows our decisions before we make them but does not make them for us. In Deuteronomy, for example, God knew that Israel would rebel against Him and gave Moses the words to put into a song. He knew what their choice would be, He knew how He would repay their choice and He knew how they would end. The song is God's prophecy. And there is no way that God could have given us so much prophecy throughout Scripture if He were not in all time at all time. The one thing you will never hear God say is "Golly, I never thought things would turn out this way!"

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to sleep with your fathers; then this people will rise and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake me and break my covenant which I have made with them...

21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their descendants); for I know the purposes which they are already forming, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give..."

25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, 26 "Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are; behold, while I am yet alive with you, today you have been rebellious against the LORD; how much more after my death! 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. 29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands." 30 Then Moses spoke the words of this song until they were finished, in the ears of all the assembly of Israel:​

When we read this passage from Deuteronomy notice "in yellow" that God and Moses both tell us why they "know" Israel will rebel.

It's does not say because God can see the future, it's because they had already started to rebel.

Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.​

God did not know it would turn out this way or it would not have grieved him and he would not have been sorry that he had made man.

--Dave

 

[Lighthouse]

Non-extant to whom, Lighthouse? To God? Not possible.

Care to back that up with any evidence?

If God knew long before Jeremiah was conceived that he would be a prophet, there's no way that He didn't know Jeremiah's choice to be a servant of God and how Jeremiah would be received.

So, knowing He wanted Jeremiah to be a prophet, knowing that Jeremiah would be raised by God fearing parents, and knowing He would speak to Jeremiah and give him His word to speak to others, God couldn't have known Jeremiah would be a prophet without being outside of time and thus able to see the future as though it were His present?

Actually, I did post the first passage I came across in Scripture that shows clearly that God knows the future. I think Revelation is exactly as we are meant to have it. Whether it's symbolic in nature or not, I don't know. I suspect that Yeshua gave His revelation to John knowing full well that John would not understand everything He was showing him and that it would be written down descriptively. To what purpose?...well, no man is to know the day or hour of His return. We're to live as though it will be today, this moment.

No you didn't. You posted something you seem to think states such, but didn't show how it does so, and I showed you how it doesn't, so...

God told John what He planned to do, which is something God would know of the present without having to know the future in the way you believe He does.

 

[IMJerusha]

Okay DFT and Lighthouse, read Genesis 15:13-16 and tell me again that God does not know the future.

Gentlemen, God gave us time. He doesn't have a watch. Consider the transfiguration. How does Elijah and Moses, who passed away hundreds of years earlier, meet with Yeshua on a mountaintop even when we are told that the dead sleep until the resurrection? It's because when we pass away, we leave our time and enter God's time which is all time. How was Saul able to speak with Samuel after Samuel was dead if the dead sleep until the resurrection. It was because Samuel was with God in His time.

You are trying to put limitations on God.
"Where then does wisdom come from? Where does understanding dwell? It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing, concealed even from the birds of the air. Destruction and Death say, 'Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.' God understands the way to it and he alone knows where it dwells, for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens." If God is not in all time at all time, how can He create at the beginning and view the ends of the earth or see everything under the heavens? Your theory holds no water and certainly no wisdom.

 

[godrulz]

Okay DFT and Lighthouse, read Genesis 15:13-16 and tell me again that God does not know the future.

Even I can predict that the population will grow exponentially from BC to now.

If it named every believer and their birthdates, then I would likely have to consider exhaustive, definite FK. God's intelligence and exhaustive past/present knowledge and ability to bring things to pass account for this proof text. Try again.

 

[IMJerusha]

Even I can predict that the population will grow exponentially from BC to now.

If it named every believer and their birthdates, then I would likely have to consider exhaustive, definite FK. God's intelligence and exhaustive past/present knowledge and ability to bring things to pass account for this proof text. Try again.

Squint a little harder when you read those verses. Your letting too many facts slip away.

 

[Lighthouse]

Okay DFT and Lighthouse, read Genesis 15:13-16 and tell me again that God does not know the future.

As I've said, God knows His plans. God planned to bring it to pass.

Try again.

Gentlemen, God gave us time. He doesn't have a watch. Consider the transfiguration. How does Elijah and Moses, who passed away hundreds of years earlier, meet with Yeshua on a mountaintop even when we are told that the dead sleep until the resurrection? It's because when we pass away, we leave our time and enter God's time which is all time. How was Saul able to speak with Samuel after Samuel was dead if the dead sleep until the resurrection. It was because Samuel was with God in His time.

Where does the Bible say God gave us time?

Elijah and Moses were in Paradise [Abraham's Bosom] when Jesus went to bring them with Him to Heaven, because they were in Paradise awaiting Him and His resurrection.

As for the dead sleeping until the resurrection, where is that in the Bible?

You are trying to put limitations on God.

:doh:

The limitation is not on God it's on His creation, and He is the one who put it there.

"Where then does wisdom come from? Where does understanding dwell? It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing, concealed even from the birds of the air. Destruction and Death say, 'Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.' God understands the way to it and he alone knows where it dwells, for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens." If God is not in all time at all time, how can He create at the beginning and view the ends of the earth or see everything under the heavens? Your theory holds no water and certainly no wisdom.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

The ends of the Earth is not a reference to the end of time; it's a reference to the physical space of the Earth, which currently exists. Which is the same for everything under the heavens.

Your reasoning is non sequitur.

 

[IMJerusha]

As I've said, God knows His plans. God planned to bring it to pass.

Try again.


Where does the Bible say God gave us time?

Elijah and Moses were in Paradise [Abraham's Bosom] when Jesus went to bring them with Him to Heaven, because they were in Paradise awaiting Him and His resurrection.

As for the dead sleeping until the resurrection, where is that in the Bible?


:doh:

The limitation is not on God it's on His creation, and He is the one who put it there.


ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

The ends of the Earth is not a reference to the end of time; it's a reference to the physical space of the Earth, which currently exists. Which is the same for everything under the heavens.

Your reasoning is non sequitur.

My reasoning is out of pure faith and understanding from Ruach HaKodesh so it most certainly follows that I would employ it. I can not prove it to someone who doesn't understand that or someone who can't be bothered to read Scripture with a heart open to God. No kidding! Unsubscribing.

 

[Lighthouse]

My reasoning is out of pure faith and understanding from Ruach HaKodesh so it most certainly follows that I would employ it. I can not prove it to someone who doesn't understand that or someone who can't be bothered to read Scripture with a heart open to God. No kidding!

I used to agree with you. Can you reason out why I no longer do? Was it because I was reading Scripture with my own bias [which if said bias were the open view would be contrary to the views with which I was raised and educated]?

 

[IMJerusha]

I used to agree with you. Can you reason out why I no longer do? Was it because I was reading Scripture with my own bias [which if said bias were the open view would be contrary to the views with which I was raised and educated]?

Reason that results in a degradation of faith is foolishness in the face of God. In case you didn't see the edit of my previous post, I am unsubscribing.

 

[Lighthouse]

Reason that results in a degradation of faith is foolishness in the face of God. In case you didn't see the edit of my previous post, I am unsubscribing.

My faith didn't degrade. That's a non sequitur; an assumption based on your own bias.