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  • #76
    Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
    I agree. So where do Matt Slick and John Sanders come up with such outrageously ridiculous things?
    Who are they?

    Our future is known.
    And I should believe your words over what Scripture reveals because...?

    Our choices are known though God does not make them for us. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is in all time at all time. To claim that God doesn't know what our choices will be and therefore doesn't know the future is to deny the Prophets. It's a denial of Yeshua's revelation to John. And consider Psalm 139.
    I've considered it and it lines up quite well. If you truly want to discuss it, I will. You let me know.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by surrender View Post
      Who are they?
      Oh....just names I pulled out of a hat!

      Originally posted by surrender View Post
      And I should believe your words over what Scripture reveals because...?
      I have not posted that you should believe my words over Scripture.

      Originally posted by surrender View Post
      I've considered it and it lines up quite well. If you truly want to discuss it, I will. You let me know.
      Okay.
      I AM the pie lady!!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
        Oh....just names I pulled out of a hat!
        Shrug...okay.

        I have not posted that you should believe my words over Scripture.
        But you've given me your words but no Scripture to back it up.

        Okay.
        Okay what? If your mind is made up, please don't waste my time. This issue is not salvific, so it doesn't matter to me whether you believe God knows the future as fact or not. But if you're curious as to why I've come to the conclusion that God does not know all the future "as fact" then I'd be happy to go into it further. But, please, be honest. If you're not interested and/or if you're more secure in thinking God knows all the future as fact, then you should continue to adhere to that notion and not waste the time of those who are simply here to share with those who are truly interested.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by surrender View Post


          Okay what? If your mind is made up, please don't waste my time. This issue is not salvific, so it doesn't matter to me whether you believe God knows the future as fact or not. But if you're curious as to why I've come to the conclusion that God does not know all the future "as fact" then I'd be happy to go into it further. But, please, be honest. If you're not interested and/or if you're more secure in thinking God knows all the future as fact, then you should continue to adhere to that notion and not waste the time of those who are simply here to share with those who are truly interested.
          Sorry to have bothered you.
          I AM the pie lady!!

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          • #80
            Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
            Sorry to have bothered you.
            Absolutely no bother for those who are genuinely interested in learning why I've come to the conclusions I have. In those cases, it's a pleasure.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
              I agree. So where do Matt Slick and John Sanders come up with such outrageously ridiculous things? Our future is known. Our choices are known though God does not make them for us. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is in all time at all time. To claim that God doesn't know what our choices will be and therefore doesn't know the future is to deny the Prophets. It's a denial of Yeshua's revelation to John. And consider Psalm 139.
              Interesting that you mention both these men in the same sentence. One believes in open theism, the other does not.
              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

              Jim Elliot

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                This is exactly right, and exactly what OTers try to avoid acknowledging.
                I don't avoid it and I'm an OT'er

                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                The introduction of ~possibles~ that God might not know about, or which might act to change God's mind, is similar to the Roman Catholic sect of Molinism, who like to speculate about such things . . . only in the attempt to retain belief in libertarian free will and claim the sovereignty of God at the same time.
                God, in His omniscience, knows about all possibilities and acknowledges such. See 2 Chronicles 7:14 for example. It's all about choice. It's just that in His omniscience, God knows what our choices will be.

                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                It is an awkward, theological balancing act, to try to have it both ways, as Open Theists and Molinists and godrulz practice.
                That's a three way, Nang, like Skyline Chili!
                I AM the pie lady!!

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                  Interesting that you mention both these men in the same sentence. One believes in open theism, the other does not.
                  Oh, hey, I pulled those names out of a hat, remember!?


                  Seriously, it's hard to tell from the way Matt Slick's article is posted whether he is for or against.
                  Last edited by IMJerusha; January 20th, 2013, 03:54 PM.
                  I AM the pie lady!!

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                    I question His sanctioning of us deciding what He is capable of and what He is not.
                    Who said anything about us deciding of what He is capable? We've come to the conclusion that He has told us, through Scripture, that the future doesn't exist and thus cannot be an object of knowledge in a definitive manner.

                    Originally posted by surrender View Post
                    WE don't decide. Scripture tells us.
                    Exactly.

                    Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                    I agree. So where do Matt Slick and John Sanders come up with such outrageously ridiculous things? Our future is known. Our choices are known though God does not make them for us. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is in all time at all time. To claim that God doesn't know what our choices will be and therefore doesn't know the future is to deny the Prophets. It's a denial of Yeshua's revelation to John. And consider Psalm 139.
                    And what Scripture do you have to support the idea that our future is known? What part of Psalm 139 leads you to believe that? Or 2 Chronicles 7:14?
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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                      Who said anything about us deciding of what He is capable? We've come to the conclusion that He has told us, through Scripture, that the future doesn't exist and thus cannot be an object of knowledge in a definitive manner.
                      Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
                      The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.



                      Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                      And what Scripture do you have to support the idea that our future is known? What part of Psalm 139 leads you to believe that? Or 2 Chronicles 7:14?
                      "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

                      Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.
                      I AM the pie lady!!

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                        Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
                        The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.
                        And if Scripture shows the future is non-extant and thus unknowable how is it ludicrous to recognize it? And what Scriptures would we be denying, exactly?

                        "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

                        Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.
                        So you can't find a single verse, or passage, that states your case? You do realize that Revelation is symbolic in nature, don't you? I mean, there are some things that aren't, but they are very few. Thus the only things we really get from such messages are that God knows His plans, but that the specifics of our free actions don't exist to be known.
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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post

                          Let me see if I can explain myself in a way that doesn't get me lambasted with cynicism.
                          The point I was trying to make is that we are in no position to finger God. True, we have His word that provides us some insight but that is the extent of it. We're fooling ourselves if we think that insight is anything more than cause to fall on our faces in worship of Him and to claim that, from Scripture, we know that God can not foreknow our future is ludicrous at best and completely denying Scripture at worst.



                          "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' " -- Genesis 2:16-17

                          Move on from there and go all the way to Revelation. I would end up posting so much Scripture, the length of my post would get me banned. I'm not opposed to aspects of Open Theism but I'm not going to jump into the pool with folks who think that God doesn't know our end. I'm just not that big a fool. Scripture says He knows our beginnings and Revelation states He knows our end. Yeshua stated that He is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. Yeshua was at our beginnings and He will be at our end fully prepared to scrutinize our every thought, word and deed.
                          He is the beginning and the end "not knows" the beginning from the end.

                          God begins things and ends them, that would mean time for God, right?

                          --Dave
                          www.dynamicfreetheism.com
                          The only view of ultimate reality that provides
                          rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
                          The only view that proves the existence and explains
                          the nature of God.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            And if Scripture shows the future is non-extant and thus unknowable how is it ludicrous to recognize it? And what Scriptures would we be denying, exactly?
                            Non-extant to whom, Lighthouse? To God? Not possible.

                            If God knew long before Jeremiah was conceived that he would be a prophet, there's no way that He didn't know Jeremiah's choice to be a servant of God and how Jeremiah would be received.

                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            So you can't find a single verse, or passage, that states your case? You do realize that Revelation is symbolic in nature, don't you? I mean, there are some things that aren't, but they are very few. Thus the only things we really get from such messages are that God knows His plans, but that the specifics of our free actions don't exist to be known.
                            Actually, I did post the first passage I came across in Scripture that shows clearly that God knows the future. I think Revelation is exactly as we are meant to have it. Whether it's symbolic in nature or not, I don't know. I suspect that Yeshua gave His revelation to John knowing full well that John would not understand everything He was showing him and that it would be written down descriptively. To what purpose?...well, no man is to know the day or hour of His return. We're to live as though it will be today, this moment.
                            Last edited by IMJerusha; January 22nd, 2013, 12:01 PM.
                            I AM the pie lady!!

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
                              He is the beginning and the end "not knows" the beginning from the end.

                              God begins things and ends them, that would mean time for God, right?

                              --Dave
                              I believe, from Scripture, that God is in all time at all time; that He knows our decisions before we make them but does not make them for us. In Deuteronomy, for example, God knew that Israel would rebel against Him and gave Moses the words to put into a song. He knew what their choice would be, He knew how He would repay their choice and He knew how they would end. The song is God's prophecy. And there is no way that God could have given us so much prophecy throughout Scripture if He were not in all time at all time. The one thing you will never hear God say is "Golly, I never thought things would turn out this way!"
                              Last edited by IMJerusha; January 22nd, 2013, 11:54 AM.
                              I AM the pie lady!!

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                                I believe, from Scripture, that God is in all time at all time; that He knows our decisions before we make them but does not make them for us. In Deuteronomy, for example, God knew that Israel would rebel against Him and gave Moses the words to put into a song. He knew what their choice would be, He knew how He would repay their choice and He knew how they would end. The song is God's prophecy. And there is no way that God could have given us so much prophecy throughout Scripture if He were not in all time at all time. The one thing you will never hear God say is "Golly, I never thought things would turn out this way!"
                                You believe from your interpretation of Scripture...other equally capable, godly Scripture users come to different conclusions from Scripture. I would suggest there are alternate understandings to your proof texting/eisegesis/preconceived ideas.
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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