Theology Club: Scripture supporting the Open View

[surrender]

I thought it would be fun to have a thread specifically dedicated to Scripture supporting the Open View. Please add to the list at your leisure.

If Nang or anyone else would like to debate about any particular verse or passage, please do not post in this thread but instead open a thread using the Scripture reference as the title.

First up...

Genesis 2:19
“So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was the name.”

This tells us the motive for God bringing the animals to Adam—in order to see or “find out” how Adam would choose. If God knew Adam’s choices as settled already, Scripture is incorrect when it describes God’s motive in bringing the animals to Adam.

 

[surrender]

Genesis 6:5-6
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

The fact that God ended up destroying the entire human race and starting over with Noah implies that God genuinely felt deep regret. The only way to feel genuine regret is if there had been the possibility that things would have turned out differently. This means that God did not know with absolute certainty that man would come to such a pitiful state. I’m not suggesting that God didn’t foresee this as one of many possible scenarios for mankind, but the clear demonstration of regret by God shows that man coming to this shameful condition was not the most probable scenario that God foresaw.

 

[surrender]

Genesis 22:12
“He said, ‘Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.’”

God says, “Since you have not…NOW I know.” It’s not that I think God didn’t already know that Abraham feared God (God knows Abraham’s heart). And I realize there were many times prior to this event that Abraham demonstrated through faith his fear in God. But there is something monumental in this particular event that demonstrated to God once and for all that Abraham feared God. If God knew the entire future as settled, God’s statement “now I know” would be completely disingenuous.

 

[surrender]

Exodus 4:1-4:9
“Then Moses said, ‘What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’ The Lord said to him, ‘What is that in your hand?’ And he said, ‘A staff.’ Then He said, ‘Throw it on the ground…Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail…that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has appeared to you.’ …‘Now put your hand in your bosom.’ …behold his hand was leprous like snow. …and when he took it out of his bosom, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. ‘If they will not believe you or heed the witness of the first sign, they may believe the witness of the last sign. But if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile..will become blood on the dry ground...’”

If the future is settled, God would have known exactly how many miracles it would have taken for the elders to believe God appeared to Moses. God uses the terms “if” and “may” indicating that there was a possibility they wouldn’t believe the first or second sign. If the future is settled, God saying “If they don’t believe you, they may believe the next sign” would be disingenuous. But I believe God was being sincere and genuine.

This passage also shows how God is confident in His ability to accomplish His purposes (i.e. getting the elders to believe Moses’ testimony) even when faced with the choices of free will agents. God doesn’t need to have everything settled in order to bring to pass what He desires. He is infinitely wise, infinitely resourceful and infinitely loving. He doesn’t need to use excessive force and He doesn’t need a crystal ball (i.e. the future doesn’t have to be settled).

 

[surrender]

Exodus 4:10-16
10 Then Moses said to the LORD, "Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue." 11 The LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12 "Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say." 13 But he said, "Please, Lord, now send the message by whomever You will." 14 Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. 15 "You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do. 16 "Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.

Moses doesn’t feel qualified for the job the Lord has in mind for him (verse 10), so the Lord reassures Moses that He will help him (verse 12). Moses isn’t reassured and continues to complain he isn’t qualified (verse 13), so the Lord gets angry with Moses (verse 14). If the Lord knew with certainty from the foundation of the world that Aaron was going to help Moses, why did the Lord try to convince Moses that he was qualified to take on this job alone, instead of just telling Moses from the beginning that his brother would help him? In other words, why did the Lord sincerely try to accomplish something He was eternally certain wouldn’t be accomplished? And why on earth would the Lord get so angry with Moses’ stubborn resistance if the Lord knew with certainty from the foundation of the world that Moses would behave this way?

 

[surrender]

Exodus 13:17
When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."

If the Lord had been eternally certain about what the Israelites would do when faced with war, we wouldn’t find God thinking in terms of what the Israelites might do (i.e. change their minds and return). Either God would know from all eternity that they would not have changed their minds when faced with war or God would know from all eternity that they would have changed their minds when faced with war.

 

[surrender]

Exodus 16:4
Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions."

This tells us the motive for God giving specific instructions on how to gather the manna—in order to see or “find out” if they would follow the Lord’s instructions. If God already knew from all eternity if they’d follow His instructions, Scripture is incorrect when it describes God’s motive in giving such specific instructions.

 

[surrender]

Exodus 32:14
Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

The Lord tells Moses He plans to destroy the Israelites (Ex. 32:10), so Moses pleads with the Lord to reconsider (Ex. 32:11-14), and the Lord relents (Ex. 32:14). If one believes God was not being disingenuous when He told Moses He intended to destroy the Israelites, one must conclude that Israel’s future could not possibly have been eternally settled.

 

[surrender]

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."

Why would God have names in a book that He eternally foreknew would be blotted out? What's the point of that?

Why would God even create individuals He foreknew would be blotted out of His book and suffer the consequences of the lake of fire?

 

[surrender]

Exodus 33:1-3, 14
Then the LORD spoke to Moses, "Depart, go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought up from the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'To your descendants I will give it.' I will send an angel before you and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, and I might destroy you on the way."

And He said, "My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest."

God was considering withdrawing His presence from this obstinate people. He was so angry with them, He thought He might destroy them on the way if He remained with them. But Moses begged God to change His mind, as he had done before, and God changed His mind and decided to remain with the Israelites.

I want to point out a few things. Why does God get so angry with them for the obstinacy He foreknew from all eternity they would display? “From all eternity” is a long time to prepare. Further, God says He “might” destroy them on the way. If all things are eternally settled, God would know whether or not He would destroy them on the way. He would have simply said, “If I go up with them, they’ll infuriate Me so much that I will destroy them on the way.” Lastly, if we believe God is being genuine, then God genuinely considered not going with the Israelites. I simply don’t believe God is being disingenuous when He informs Moses of His various “Plan Bs.” God doesn’t lie. He genuinely planned to not go up with them and after Moses beseeched Him, He changed His mind and went with them.

 

[2COR12:9]

Mark 13:32 (NASB)
But of that day or hour no one knows,
not even the angels in heaven,
nor the Son,
but the Father alone.

Granted this is one of the least evident open view defensible passages. Though I still think of it supportive when interpreted in such a way as this being a statement revealing that the Father will know when the time is right, based upon certain requirements reaching fulfillment. So there is a day and an hour a time when God will act, except that day and hour is yet to be determined, and will be by the Father alone who decisively reveals when the time is right. Which could possibly be akin to when He sent Christ; not to deter that the Father always planned to send Him, just that He was waiting for the most ample opportunity to introduce Him into history. Which sets the stage for my next passage.​

​

 

[2COR12:9]

Galatians 4:4 (ESV)
But when the fullness of time had come,
God sent forth his Son,
born of woman, born under the law,

I see this as revealing that God can have a plan and knowledge of when to set something in motion, but that it's also contingent on many varying forces drawing it to the right time, which could have been delayed or sped up depending on what the course of history had manifested. So I see God here as relying on infinite wisdom or intelligence, as some have put, the master Chess player knowing the best time to take full advantage of a certain piece in regard to his opponent's actions. This could be another weak argument for the OV since anyone could say He ordained that time, or foreknew the right time, though I believe it helps us that hold the view that God is both waiting and discerning.​

 

[Lighthouse]

Galatians 4:4 (ESV)
But when the fullness of time had come,
God sent forth his Son,
born of woman, born under the law,

I see this as revealing that God can have a plan and knowledge of when to set something in motion, but that it's also contingent on many varying forces drawing it to the right time, which could have been delayed or sped up depending on what the course of history had manifested. So I see God here as relying on infinite wisdom or intelligence, as some have put, the master Chess player knowing the best time to take full advantage of a certain piece in regard to his opponent's actions. This could be another weak argument for the OV since anyone could say He ordained that time, or foreknew the right time, though I believe it helps us that hold the view that God is both waiting and discerning.​

I think that can go along with this verse:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
-Romans 11:25

The time will be right for Jesus to return when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in as it was when the fullness of time that was right for Him to first come.

 

[glorydaz]

I think that can go along with this verse:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
-Romans 11:25

The time will be right for Jesus to return when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in as it was when the fullness of time that was right for Him to first come.

Alright....good word. I was wondering what you guys talked about over here. Jumping in the middle as I am, I'll just add....the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[caribou]

2 Peter 3:9 - <SUP class=versenum></SUP>The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is pretty open ended. God is not willing for any one to be lost, and yet people reject Him.

 

[DFT_Dave]

We could put together a whole Bible Commentary on this thread!

The Theology Online Commentary on Open Theism

:the_wave:

Great idea Surrender :thumb:

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

There is movemenmt in God, in the closed view God is "immovable". God had never before spoken "let there be light". There is a sequence of activity by God in the creation of the world that requires movement, change of activity, and time in God.

--Dave

 

[Lighthouse]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

There is movemenmt in God, in the closed view God is "immovable". God had never before spoken "let there be light". There is a sequence of activity by God in the creation of the world that requires movement, change of activity, and time in God.

--Dave

:thumb: