Theology Club: How does open theism intepret these verses?

[Angel4Truth]

How does open theism intepret the verses about God not changing?


Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Thank you

 

[Lighthouse]

How does open theism intepret the verses about God not changing?


Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Thank you

Same as we interpret 1 Samuel 15:29

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

We look at the context, and realize that the particular events, or subject, in question is one upon which God will not change. For in verses 11 and 35 in the same chapter we read: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night," and "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel." Respectively.

God does not change as men change, and His character never changes. But His plans change, and He certainly changes His mind. David and Abraham certainly thought God could be persuaded to change His mind, else they would not have bargained with Him over the firstborn son of adultery or Sodom and Gomorrah, respectively.

Certain things do not change, that does not mean nothing ever changes. He changed when He became flesh and dwelt among us, did He not?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Same as we interpret 1 Samuel 15:29

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

We look at the context, and realize that the particular events, or subject, in question is one upon which God will not change. For in verses 11 and 35 in the same chapter we read: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night," and "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel." Respectively.

God does not change as men change, and His character never changes. But His plans change, and He certainly changes His mind. David and Abraham certainly thought God could be persuaded to change His mind, else they would not have bargained with Him over the firstborn son of adultery or Sodom and Gomorrah, respectively.

Certain things do not change, that does not mean nothing ever changes. He changed when He became flesh and dwelt among us, did He not?

I get relent there, not repent in 1 Samuel 15:29. To not relent, is to NOT change ones mind.

 

[Lighthouse]

I get relent there, not repent in 1 Samuel 15:29. To not relent, is to NOT change ones mind.

So? I answered the question.

And "repent" is found in the KJV. So stop quibbling over translation.

Either way Samuel 15:29 tells us that God will not change His mind and I explained it.

And to further my point:

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
-Jonah 3:10

 

[Angel4Truth]

So? I answered the question.

And "repent" is found in the KJV. So stop quibbling over translation.

Either way Samuel 15:29 tells us that God will not change His mind and I explained it.

And to further my point:

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
-Jonah 3:10

Correct because the promise was conditional. Jonah understood it that way too:

Jonah 4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Jonah already knew that if they repented, God would relent, that verse proves it. Therefore its quite clear that what Jonah was told and discussed with God was a conditional promise - which is why Jonah did not want to warn them of what was coming, because his heart was hard against ninevah and wanted to see them destroyed.

 

[Lighthouse]

Correct because the promise was conditional. Jonah understood it that way too:

Jonah 4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Jonah already knew that if they repented, God would relent, that verse proves it. Therefore its quite clear that what Jonah was told and discussed with God was a conditional promise - which is why Jonah did not want to warn them of what was coming, because his heart was hard against ninevah and wanted to see them destroyed.

You just admitted that Jonah knew God was capable of changing His mind.

 

[Angel4Truth]

You just admitted that Jonah knew God was capable of changing His mind.

A change of mind would be making an unconditional promise, then doing something else.

A conditional promise means certain things are done and x happens or if they do not happen then, y happens.

So no, i admitted no such thing. Jonahs own words proved that God made a conditional promise where Nineveh was concerned - not an unconditional one .

 

[Angel4Truth]

If God makes unconditional promises and then changes, then that would mean salvation is not secure and we would not be able to trust God, which is why scripture is clear that God is not a man that He should lie or a son of man that He should change His mind.

 

[Lighthouse]

A change of mind would be making an unconditional promise, then doing something else.

A conditional promise means certain things are done and x happens or if they do not happen then, y happens.

So no, i admitted no such thing. Jonahs own words proved that God made a conditional promise where Nineveh was concerned - not an unconditional one .

God never said the promise was conditional. Jonah believed God would change His mind if Nineveh repented, but God never said the warning was conditional. And the Bible flat out tells us God repented, or relented in some versions, which means He changed His mind. The Bible is clear.

If God makes unconditional promises and then changes, then that would mean salvation is not secure and we would not be able to trust God, which is why scripture is clear that God is not a man that He should lie or a son of man that He should change His mind.

No it wouldn't. I already told you that while God changes His mind on some things there are others on which He does not. His gifts and calling are irrevocable, according to His word.

 

[surrender]

How does open theism intepret the verses about God not changing?


Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Thank you

Here you go:

Numbers 23:19
The Lord tells Balak through Balaam “God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind.”
This verse (as well as 1 Sam. 15:29, which quotes it) is often cited in refutation of the claim that God genuinely changes his mind. However, since Scripture explicitly states in dozens of contexts that the Lord does change his mind (twice in 1 Samuel 15!) the text cannot justifiably be used in this fashion. There is a straightforward explanation of this text that is perfectly consistent with texts that teach that the Lord does sometimes change his mind.
In this passage Balak attempted to get Balaam (a “prophet-for-hire”) to prophesy what he wanted to hear (cf. 22:38–23:17). The Lord informed Balak that he, the true God, is not like a human being who can lie when it’s profitable or a mortal who will change his mind for the sake of convenience. This was a common practice for false prophets who speak on behalf of false gods. But for the first time in his life Balak (and Balaam!) confronted the real God. This God is not like a mortal who would change his mind for the reasons Balak gave him to do so.
The conclusion that the whole council of Scripture should lead us to is that God changes when it is virtuous to change, but is completely unchanging when it is virtuous not to change.

Psalm 102:27
Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, have not perished.”
Some cite this verse as evidence that God need never be flexible in his plans and change his mind. But this claim contradicts all the explicit declarations in Scripture which state that God does frequently modify his plans and change his mind, especially in response to prayer and repentant hearts.
It’s important to consider this verse’s context. The Lord is teaching Israel that if it were not for his steadfast character and covenantal integrity they would have all perished because of their iniquities. God’s character never changes. He is always perfectly good and faithful. But for just this reason he will not stick to one intention—even after he’s announced it—if the circumstances change and render that intention no longer perfectly good (see Jer. 18:6–10; Jon. 4:2; Joel 2:12–13). In other words, God is absolutely unchanging in his perfect character which is perfectly responsive to our ever changing circumstances.

 

[godrulz]

God does not change His mind in a capricious, fickle way like men do. There is a motif of God changing His mind in many verses (not anthropomorphic). In other cases, God will not change His mind, but it does not mean He cannot (since He is a personal, free moral agent/being).

 

[bybee]

A change of mind would be making an unconditional promise, then doing something else.

A conditional promise means certain things are done and x happens or if they do not happen then, y happens.

So no, i admitted no such thing. Jonahs own words proved that God made a conditional promise where Nineveh was concerned - not an unconditional one .

A change of mind meets a different situation, a different circumstance. It is an amendment or an alteration. It is taking advantage of the built in contingencies for which God has made allowances.

 

[Eeset]

I have read through all the replies as well as the original post. To me they all seem like sophistry. Humans arguing about how God thinks, changes or doesn't change is just plain silly. Moses argued with God did he not?

 

[godrulz]

I have read through all the replies as well as the original post. To me they all seem like sophistry. Humans arguing about how God thinks, changes or doesn't change is just plain silly. Moses argued with God did he not?

God has given us revelation and we should know Him and make Him known as He is. We do not have exhaustive knowledge of God, but we can know true vs false things about Him and His ways. There are practical implications in right doctrine/practice.

Why accept strong immutability influenced by pagan philosophers if weak immutability is more biblical/coherent?

 

[Delmar]

A change of mind would be making an unconditional promise, then doing something else.

A conditional promise means certain things are done and x happens or if they do not happen then, y happens.

So no, i admitted no such thing. Jonahs own words proved that God made a conditional promise where Nineveh was concerned - not an unconditional one .

The very fact that a conditional promise was made, shows that the outcome was not predetermined.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The very fact that a conditional promise was made, shows that the outcome was not predetermined.

I agree that He didn't predetermine it, He just knows whether they will meet the condition or not, they make the choice.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I agree that He didn't predetermine it, He just knows whether they will meet the condition or not, they make the choice.

Okay but then the question is... how far in advance did God know the outcome?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have read through all the replies as well as the original post. To me they all seem like sophistry. Humans arguing about how God thinks, changes or doesn't change is just plain silly. Moses argued with God did he not?

I can understand what you are saying but here is the deal.... a theology came along a few hundred years ago that claims that God predetermines everything that has every happened or that will every happen in minute detail. That notion has biblical implications. For instance, if that notion is true... evangelism is nothing more than "going through the motions", since those who will be saved will be saved, and those who are going to hell are going to hell, regardless of any effort on our part.

That's why these types of discussions occur. It's our way of investigating God's character to see if His word matches the claims of some 16th century theologian.

 

[Sherman]

I have read through all the replies as well as the original post. To me they all seem like sophistry. Humans arguing about how God thinks, changes or doesn't change is just plain silly. Moses argued with God did he not?

Moses did argue with God--Very true. :thumb: Also very true that no human has all the answers concerning God. But though discussion on the subject, something can be learned. Sophistry isn't the point of this thread.

 

[Sherman]

I can understand what you are saying but here is the deal.... a theology came along a few hundred years ago that claims that God predetermines everything that has every happened or that will every happen in minute detail. That notion has biblical implications. For instance, if that notion is true... evangelism is nothing more than "going through the motions", since those who will be saved will be saved, and those who are going to hell are going to hell, regardless of any effort on our part.

That's why these types of discussions occur. It's our way of investigating God's character to see if His word matches the claims of some 16th century theologian.

SPOTD:first: The first one for this forum.